Hiker survives two nights solo in woods and Trap Dike rescue

[BlackSpruce]

Even though I think the ADKHP website winter gathering serves a worthy cause (and great for the local economy), one cannot deny that it unduly pressures inexperienced climbers to exceed their limits by pushing them to reach the true summit of one of the 46 Peaks on a specific winter day. In my humble opinion, this is misguided not to say completely foolish. For many of the participants, this event is an opportunity to bag a peak on their list while in the company of others, and some are teamed with a more experienced climber who is usually working on some kind of list as well. There is nothing wrong with that. That is, not until it is time to turn back and the little inner voice keeps saying: “don’t be the one failure of the day in letting the group down by not reaching the peak”. And this is obvious the months before the event when climbers are overtly pressured to participate and the day after the event when compiling the attained summits is of great importance. Peer pressure causes each of us to make a stupid decision at some point in our lives, this is human nature.
Having completed a handful of winter rounds of the 46, often using a GPS, I fully agree with Doug Paul: “Pushing one's limits is essential to learning. Without it, we become static and won't progress. Mountaineering is not an amusement park (a place where the events are engineered to look dangerous but in reality are very safe), the risks are real. Pushing one's limits increases the risk that one will fail, possibly with serious consequences. One can also fail with serious consequences while staying within one's limits.” Nevertheless when I read reports of a group leader terrorized by spruce traps, of climbers complaining about the lack of trail markers on herdpaths and even about the snow being too deep, my initial reaction is a chuckle. But then I quickly realize that I would not have wanted to be the one to have encouraged such individuals to reach a peak no matter what, as it is their toes and fingers that I would have put on the line.

And what of the responsibility for the safety of the participants? It rests solely on the Forest Rangers and to a lesser extent on other climbers who happen to be on the same mountain (and I speak from my own experiences).

***Here is the link to the 46-Rs winter hiking pamphlet:
http://www.adk46r.org/winter_hiking.pdf

 

[Rik]

Even though I think the ADKHP website winter gathering serves a worthy cause (and great for the local economy), one cannot deny that it unduly pressures inexperienced climbers to exceed their limits by pushing them to reach the true summit of one of the 46 Peaks on a specific winter day. In my humble opinion, this is misguided not to say completely foolish. For many of the participants, this event is an opportunity to bag a peak on their list while in the company of others, and some are teamed with a more experienced climber who is usually working on some kind of list as well. There is nothing wrong with that. That is, not until it is time to turn back and the little inner voice keeps saying: “don’t be the one failure of the day in letting the group down by not reaching the peak”. And this is obvious the months before the event when climbers are overtly pressured to participate and the day after the event when compiling the attained summits is of great importance. Peer pressure causes each of us to make a stupid decision at some point in our lives, this is human nature.
Having completed a handful of winter rounds of the 46, often using a GPS, I fully agree with Doug Paul: “Pushing one's limits is essential to learning. Without it, we become static and won't progress. Mountaineering is not an amusement park (a place where the events are engineered to look dangerous but in reality are very safe), the risks are real. Pushing one's limits increases the risk that one will fail, possibly with serious consequences. One can also fail with serious consequences while staying within one's limits.” Nevertheless when I read reports of a group leader terrorized by spruce traps, of climbers complaining about the lack of trail markers on herdpaths and even about the snow being too deep, my initial reaction is a chuckle. But then I quickly realize that I would not have wanted to be the one to have encouraged such individuals to reach a peak no matter what, as it is their toes and fingers that I would have put on the line.

And what of the responsibility for the safety of the participants? It rests solely on the Forest Rangers and to a lesser extent on other climbers who happen to be on the same mountain (and I speak from my own experiences).

***Here is the link to the 46-Rs winter hiking pamphlet:
http://www.adk46r.org/winter_hiking.pdf

I didn't realize that this incident and the ADKHP gathering were at all related?

 

[Chip]

Even though I think the ADKHP website winter gathering serves a worthy cause (and great for the local economy), one cannot deny that it unduly pressures inexperienced climbers to exceed their limits by pushing them to reach the true summit of one of the 46 Peaks on a specific winter day. In my humble opinion, this is misguided not to say completely foolish. For many of the participants, this event is an opportunity to bag a peak on their list while in the company of others, and some are teamed with a more experienced climber who is usually working on some kind of list as well. There is nothing wrong with that. That is, not until it is time to turn back and the little inner voice keeps saying: “don’t be the one failure of the day in letting the group down by not reaching the peak”. And this is obvious the months before the event when climbers are overtly pressured to participate and the day after the event when compiling the attained summits is of great importance. Peer pressure causes each of us to make a stupid decision at some point in our lives, this is human nature.
Having completed a handful of winter rounds of the 46, often using a GPS, I fully agree with Doug Paul: “Pushing one's limits is essential to learning. Without it, we become static and won't progress. Mountaineering is not an amusement park (a place where the events are engineered to look dangerous but in reality are very safe), the risks are real. Pushing one's limits increases the risk that one will fail, possibly with serious consequences. One can also fail with serious consequences while staying within one's limits.” Nevertheless when I read reports of a group leader terrorized by spruce traps, of climbers complaining about the lack of trail markers on herdpaths and even about the snow being too deep, my initial reaction is a chuckle. But then I quickly realize that I would not have wanted to be the one to have encouraged such individuals to reach a peak no matter what, as it is their toes and fingers that I would have put on the line.

And what of the responsibility for the safety of the participants? It rests solely on the Forest Rangers and to a lesser extent on other climbers who happen to be on the same mountain (and I speak from my own experiences).

***Here is the link to the 46-Rs winter hiking pamphlet:
http://www.adk46r.org/winter_hiking.pdf

Did I miss something ? Was someone lost or injured on the 12th ? The Ark was filled with, probably, the most experienced group of winter hikers I've ever encountered. Your post smacks of elitism, IMHO. The first 3 times I summitted Marcy in the winter in the 70's was in leather boots, homemade gators, jeans and cotton long johns. I'm pretty sure I survived.

 

[daLunartik]

Even though I think the ADKHP website winter gathering serves a worthy cause (and great for the local economy), one cannot deny that it unduly pressures inexperienced climbers to exceed their limits by pushing them to reach the true summit of one of the 46 Peaks on a specific winter day. In my humble opinion, this is misguided not to say completely foolish. For many of the participants, this event is an opportunity to bag a peak on their list while in the company of others, and some are teamed with a more experienced climber who is usually working on some kind of list as well. There is nothing wrong with that. That is, not until it is time to turn back and the little inner voice keeps saying: “don’t be the one failure of the day in letting the group down by not reaching the peak”. And this is obvious the months before the event when climbers are overtly pressured to participate and the day after the event when compiling the attained summits is of great importance. Peer pressure causes each of us to make a stupid decision at some point in our lives, this is human nature.
Having completed a handful of winter rounds of the 46, often using a GPS, I fully agree with Doug Paul: “Pushing one's limits is essential to learning. Without it, we become static and won't progress. Mountaineering is not an amusement park (a place where the events are engineered to look dangerous but in reality are very safe), the risks are real. Pushing one's limits increases the risk that one will fail, possibly with serious consequences. One can also fail with serious consequences while staying within one's limits.” Nevertheless when I read reports of a group leader terrorized by spruce traps, of climbers complaining about the lack of trail markers on herdpaths and even about the snow being too deep, my initial reaction is a chuckle. But then I quickly realize that I would not have wanted to be the one to have encouraged such individuals to reach a peak no matter what, as it is their toes and fingers that I would have put on the line.

And what of the responsibility for the safety of the participants? It rests solely on the Forest Rangers and to a lesser extent on other climbers who happen to be on the same mountain (and I speak from my own experiences).

***Here is the link to the 46-Rs winter hiking pamphlet:
http://www.adk46r.org/winter_hiking.pdf

While your observations may or may not be correct, I don't see the relevance to the incidents in question.

 

[BlackSpruce]

Rik, if it has not been deleted read again the post made by the Sewards climber before he headed out!

 

[Peakbagr]

Let's keep this to a discussion of ideas and not about the people who post.

 

[daLunartik]

Rik, if it has not been deleted read again the post made by the Sewards climber before he headed out!

What, that he was hoping the trail broken out during the winter gathering would still be easy to follow so he could save time route finding? Sounds like quality Trail Vulturing to me .

That being said - did anyone else notice that the Ranger report stated he could not get a fire started, where the first newspaper report indicated that he did?

 

[BlackSpruce]

Mr. Molnar showed amazing will power as he kept moving for 24 hours or more, knowing that if he stopped he would not be able to get moving again. It likely was at a very slow pace but it saved his life.

 

[Chip]

Let's keep this to a discussion of ideas and not about the people who post.

I'll try.

It's not my job to defend ADKHighpeaks or their desire to have each 46 covered the day of their gathering, but I think it's hypocritical to criticize them and then link to a ADK46r.org pamphlet. The ADK46r's are, by definition, a group that promotes their list and peak bagging. It's either okay for the unwashed masses to pursue a list, or it isn't.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Mr. Molnar showed amazing will power as he kept moving for 24 hours or more, knowing that if he stopped he would not be able to get moving again. It likely was at a very slow pace but it saved his life.

Couldn't agree more. And he spent the first night after falling in the brook under a tree before he began the long trek out.

There's no substitute for experience and good judgement in winter hiking, and when your back is against the wall, an incredibly strong will to live may save you.

 

[BlackSpruce]

My comment is not about a list, as the more people enjoy the outdoors any time of the year the better but about the little extra pressure to reach a peak that makes a big difference.

 

[BIGEarl]

Does this thread belong in "Trips & Events" forum?

 

[DougPaul]

Mr. Molnar showed amazing will power as he kept moving for 24 hours or more, knowing that if he stopped he would not be able to get moving again. It likely was at a very slow pace but it saved his life.

Absolutely.

As one who has very recently kept going for 28 hrs (without having fallen in a stream) I can confirm that it is hard work. I was moving pretty slowly at the end too...

However, from another viewpoint, what else is one to do? To stop is to die.

Doug

 

[daLunartik]

My comment is not about a list, as the more people enjoy the outdoors any time of the year the better but about the little extra pressure to reach a peak that makes a big difference.

Perhaps you should edit your original comment to be more reflective of your intent. In it's original form it's critical nature of an unrelated event actual dilutes your message (which I think is valid, btw) instead of reinforcing it, not to mention introducing confusion into the sequence of events. Other than the hiker in question being a member of the other forum, there is no correlation between what occurred to him and the organized event the prior weekend (of which he was not a participant).

 

[Peakbagr]

Earl,

It could easily belong in T&E, NY, General Backcountry depending on the comments at different parts of the thread.

 

[David Metsky]

Earl,

It could easily belong in T&E, NY, General Backcountry depending on the comments at different parts of the thread.

I think Q&A NY seems the best fit for now.

 

[BlackSpruce]

Recording or not winter climbers by the FORTY-SIXERS has been a long going debate with more and more opposing it. Mind you I doubt it will happen as some believe that it will not make a difference. For instance even though the number of new 46-Rs is larger every year (328 for 2010), there are more and more who do not register with the organisation and it is believed that there are thousands out there nowadays without a number.

 

[Craig]

This thread seems a little discombobulated.

 

[David Metsky]

Recording or not winter climbers by the FORTY-SIXERS has been a long going debate with more and more opposing it. Mind you I doubt it will happen as some believe that it will not make a difference. For instance even though the number of new 46-Rs is larger every year (328 for 2010), there are more and more who do not register with the organisation and it is believed that there are thousands out there nowadays without a number.

If you wish to discuss that topic, please create a new thread for that purpose.

 

[BlackSpruce]

David, not really I was only answering a comment by Chip.