Hiking Etiquette

[CINDERSMOM]

I am new to the forum and have a question. We hiked Tecumseh yesterday. There was a couple of inches of fresh power over a very packed base. I wore snowshoes, someone else crampons (10 pt), someone else wore 6 pt and we also saw a couple of people bare booting. Everyone was very comfortable with their choice of traction. However we met another hiker who was on his way down as we were going up and he told us that out of courtesy for other hikers we should be wearing snowshoes as the crampons were ruining the trail. It didn't appear that we were damaging the trail. Should they not have been wearing crampons?

 

[bruno]

don't listen to 'em!!! wear whatever ya want!!! this is a free country (the daks notwithstanding!!). if they can't handle footprints and holes in the trail--tough! hikin' ain't bowlin' or golf!!

in all seriousness, wear what you want. hikin' should have no rules 'cept to have fun. of course don't litter and all, but no rules. and be nice to folks ya meet in the woods!

ps--any guy that reprimands ya in that way is a TOOL!

 

[grouseking]

Hmm....

Now I have yet to use my brand new crampons, but I would like to think that I should be able to ascend/descend with crampons if I please, especially if it makes me feel comfortable (not feeling like im going to slip and fall). I'm not sure how it messes up the trail, but maybe it does.

On the other hand, when hiking without snowshoes in deep snow, that can cause some nasty postholes and can mess up the trail a bit, which can make it very difficult for people to hike.

So I would say that if one doesn't feel comfortable without traction, then use it. Maybe it is common courtesy to use snowshoes instead, but honestly, I'd rather be comfortable than courteous. In other words, the last thing I want to do is break my leg because I was thinking of the personal enjoyment of others more than the well being of myself. Hope this doesn't sound too mean...

grouseking

 

[Rick]

don't listen to 'em!!! wear whatever ya want!!! this is a free country (the daks notwithstanding!!). ...

Just to expand on Bruno's comment, In the Adirdondacks. You'll receive a stern warning, (a turn back if you don't have snowshoes or skis) or possibly even a ticket. It all depends on the day, yourself and the ranger.

 

[DougPaul]

Cindersmom:
I think the complaint was about the lack of snowshoes, not the use of crampons. (Although crampons can dig up the dirt surface of the trail and increase erosion.)

<soapbox on>
When one hikes/skis a trail, one alters the trail--perhaps by a significant amount, perhaps by an insignificant amount.

While there are no regulations in the Whites requiring the use of snowshoes (as there are in the DAKS), some of us feel that it is common courtesy to bear in mind the effect of not using snowshoes/skis in soft snow. If you are postholing, it can make the trail much more difficult or even dangerous (for skiers) for those who follow later. Snow tends to set and postholes/footprints in soft snow can become postholes/footprints set in hard snow or ice.

Many don't seem to realize it, but using snowshoes in as little as 2 or 3 inches of soft snow (over a hard base so that you are above the rocks) can be more efficient than barebooting. The predictable traction of the snowshoe saves energy wasted in dealing with the squirrely footing in the soft snow. Similarly if there is any significant risk of postholing, the snowshoes will also be more efficient, if only because you can relax rather than being tensed and ready for a posthole. (Postholing downhill can also hyper-extend a knee and rupture ligaments.)

While I am on the soapbox, sitting glissaders (butt-sliders) leave the trail a slick sliding board...

And for those who yell "freedom": freedom carries the responsibility that one's actions do not harm others.
<soapbox off>

BTW, this issue gets debated several times every year... The issues don't change.

Doug

 

[bruno]

While I am on the soapbox, sitting glissaders (butt-sliders) leave the trail a slick sliding board...




Doug

!! tell me you didn't! !! i give up!

 

[Waumbek]

. . . he told us that out of courtesy for other hikers we should be wearing snowshoes as the crampons were ruining the trail. It didn't appear that we were damaging the trail. Should they not have been wearing crampons?

I am assuming that the complainer did not mean that the crampons themselves were "ruining" the trail but that not wearing snowshoes was "ruining" the trail. Were the non-showshod hikers making postholes?
As DougPaul indicates, you ran smack into the perennial controversy over postholing. (It's right up there with yellow snow.) Think it through for yourself and proceed accordingly. If you hike a trail that is riddled with postholes and think it is a hazard to yourself or others or even just a pain in the neck, then wear snowshoes with crampon bindings when the snow is soft. If you were not damaging the trail sans snowshoes, then I would not worry about it. There's no absolute right or wrong on this; it's situational. One of the nice aspects of MSR Denali Ascents (with tails) is that they are light and compact enough to sling in your pack and use as necessary. Snow conditions can vary tremendously on a single trail. That's my solution to the problem.

 

[CINDERSMOM]

Thanks for the replies.

The trail was very hard packed under the couple of inches of fresh powder from the night before. There was no post-holing. The gentleman referred directly to the crampons and said that bare booting would be better. One of the crampon users was carring his snowshoes, he just preferred using the crampons.

 

[David Metsky]

The trail was very hard packed under the couple of inches of fresh powder from the night before. There was no post-holing. The gentleman referred directly to the crampons and said that bare booting would be better.

Well, that's a new one for me. I'm not sure what he meant, but I'm not clear how crampon holes would somehow make the trail more difficult for other users, especially compared to bare booting.

Just smile, say "thanks for your concern", and keep hiking.

-dave-

 

[pilgrim]

This is one of those issues that comes up all the time, but nobody has the guts to address the really hard question: What about the moose? Nothing postholes our trails worse than moose. Is anybody going to do anything about that? I shall not rest until every moose is fitted with snowshoes every fall, thus protecting our precious trails from their greatest threat.

 

[Waumbek]

Well, unless I'm missing something about the fine points (heh heh) of crampon usage in the conditions that you describe, I'd hit the mental delete button on the gent's comment.

 

[cp2000]

traction. However we met another hiker who was on his way down as we were going up and he told us that out of courtesy for other hikers we should be wearing snowshoes as the crampons were ruining the trail.

Hes just mad Santa gave him coal insted of new gear

 

[Neil]

This is one of those issues that comes up all the time, but nobody has the guts to address the really hard question: What about the moose? Nothing postholes our trails worse than moose. Is anybody going to do anything about that? I shall not rest until every moose is fitted with snowshoes every fall, thus protecting our precious trails from their greatest threat.

Riddle:
Why did the snowshoe hare red square the moose?

I've barebooted, cramponned and MSR'd in very similar conditions. Ettiquette and law notwithstanding I find that MSR's usually give me the best and easiest ride.

With all due respect to you DougPaul butt sliding is simply too much fun to give up! Try and tell a 17 year old kid (or 30 and 40 year old kids) that the smoothed trail left by his sitz-mark will make it more difficult for future passers-by. I have ascended slick and silvery butt grooves (in the snow ) and can't say they have had an adverse effect. The MSR crampons don't seem to be affected by it. At least not on the trails I've encountered thus far. Perhaps the Whites and the Dacks have dissimilar snow types.

 

[DougPaul]

This is one of those issues that comes up all the time, but nobody has the guts to address the really hard question: What about the moose? Nothing postholes our trails worse than moose. Is anybody going to do anything about that? I shall not rest until every moose is fitted with snowshoes every fall, thus protecting our precious trails from their greatest threat.

Moose may read this BBS, but fortunately (as far as I can tell) don't post here.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

With all due respect to you DougPaul butt sliding is simply too much fun to give up! .

Just make sure you feel properly guilty when you do it...

Doug

 

[snowshoe]

I wont wear snowshoes unless I sink more than a few inches creating a well defined posthole. In the conditions you explained I would have done the same wore crampons. crampon markes will be covered up by the next person on snowshoes. The only time I make a stink and it is more to myself is when people walk right onto a perfect set of XC ski tracks. That can really throw one off on ski's.

 

[forestgnome]

There are all types in the woods, including the expert-guide wannabes! Yes, postholing makes the trail harder for the next barebooter, but I've travelled many times with snowshoes right over heavily postholed trails without problems. Whenever I encounter postholes, I don't think "what jerks!", instead I think "what fools! That must not have been very fun!" But I can't imagine being mad at them, certainly not confronting them!

Perhaps you should avoid postholing out of consideration for others, but if your're barebooting or using crampons without postholing, then what's the problem?!!!

Perhaps that person should patrol Tuckerman Ravine Trail. He would be so busy lecturing he'd never make it to the bowl. Thousands of inconsiderate rouges! I used crampons up Boott Spur Trail today, as did many others, noone was on snowshoes, and everyone was happy. Gotta love WMNF!!!

Happy Trails!

 

[blacknblue]

Other than for the post-holing reason, I don't see any reason why snowshoes would be any more courteous or advisable than crampons/boots.
Postholing can make it far more difficult for people skiing, and, if severe enough, can be frustrating for snowshoers, too.

 

[rhihn]

On a winter hike today, we encountered a trio who had overnighted and hauled some of their gear in on a plastic sled. The sled created a smooth passage not unlike that of someone who had been butt-sliding. In one of my punchy moments I noticed that the ribbing of the sled bottom was creating tracks that looked somewhat like ski tracks, and my fleeting thought was to avoid stepping on them for fear of ruining the sled tracks!

Is there standing etiquette for sled usage?

 

[nhmtnr]

C'mon

Hiking in winter is dealing with different snow conditions. if you are concerned that you cannot handle slick conditions in winter, well then i guess you should go hike at the mall. I am also less than concerned about ruining a cross country ski track. At some point you will have deal with the conditions that are around you, rather than expecting that others are going to be overly concious that you have a tailor groomed trail for your individual needs. suck it up!

Jerry