Hiking Etiquette

[blacknblue]

I think we all recognize that we can't manipulate the actions of others any more than we can with the weather. And while I've traversed every imaginable snow/trail condition, I can't remember ever whining or complaining about it. If you hike/snowshoe/whatever popular trails, you have to be ready for that, just like you can't expect untracked powder runs at a popular ski area.
That being said, this thread was started with the intent of discussing hiking etiquette. Etiquette implies what we should do with consideration of others. We all know about our rights, rights, rights. Etiquette and consideration and courtesy revolves around more than just going out there and having fun and doing what you see best fit for yourself.
I've done my share of butt glissading and postholing (purposely or not), and I can't recall ever admonishing someone against it. At the same time, etiquette would demand that I at least consider other people outside the realm of my own enjoyment.
Do I think we should regulate winter wilderness travel? Absolutely not.
Do I think it would be best to consider others rather than self-indulgence? Absolutely yes.
Where that line is drawn should be the discussion, not "screw it; just do what you want." Sorry for the little rant, but it makes me upset that someone wouldn't at least consider other people's wilderness experience.

 

[pilgrim]

FYI, I have been winter mountaineering for 30yrs, including standing glissades, crouching glissades, sitting glissades, and self-arrest position glissades. In all cases, I try to take into account the risks and impacts of my actions.

I have only been winter mountaineering for three years, but in that short time, I am proud to say that I have become adept in the art of the abrupt face glissade.

 

[MadRiver]

Interesting topic. I would hazard a guess that we have all had misconceptions about certain individuals we might meet on the trail and assigned them properties that we might not otherwise assign if we only knew them better. For instance, on Saturday after downhill skiing in the morning I decided to go for a hike. Not wanting to go far since it was almost 2:00 pm; I decided to hike up to the top of Chickenborro Rd (a dirt road in Thornton). The trail does a loop to the Sandwich Notch Road and is not used very often, so I figured I would get to break trail for some afternoon exercise. When I arrived at the top of the road and put on my snowshoes I noticed that a snowmobile had recently gone up the trail. At first, I was somewhat annoyed that my attempt to break trail on a pristine blanket of snow had been foiled by a smelly snowmobile. Although the trail crosses my wife’s family’s land, the land isn’t posted so he did have a right to use the trail, at least according to NH law. Nonetheless, I was still a little annoyed and continued up the trail.

About twenty minutes into the hike I heard his sled coming towards me and I flagged him down. After a brief and somewhat curt hello on my part, we began chatting and it turns out he knows my wife’s family and as well as some mutual friends. He also mentioned that his wife does trail maintenance on the trail and regularly uses the trail to cross-country ski. He also cuts firewood as a side job and will be delivering me a green cord in the next few weeks.

After I said my goodbyes I continued up the trail to where he had turned around and came upon an open field where I picked up his wife’s ski tracks. I made sure I kept to the side so as not to overlap her tracks with my snowshoes. I arrived back at the house as the sun was setting.

So what started out as an annoyance over snowmobile tracks turned out to be a nice encounter with a local who will now be my wood supplier. Lesson learned!

 

[DougPaul]

FYI, I have been winter mountaineering for 30yrs, including standing glissades, crouching glissades, sitting glissades, and self-arrest position glissades. In all cases, I try to take into account the risks and impacts of my actions.

I have only been winter mountaineering for three years, but in that short time, I am proud to say that I have become adept in the art of the abrupt face glissade.

Presumably this is covered under "the impacts of one's actions".

Doug

 

[slowpoke]

thanks for the valuable lesson

Thanks you all for the valuable lesson: I should not waste my time on this type of thread. The posts that actually respond to the issue (relative imapact of various climbing methods on the trail) are outnumbered by the others.

If viewsfromthetop is the way to enlightenment, (and who could question that?), and if this thread is a path, then it is a postholed-camponed-iced-over-moose-abused path and I am going to find another one.

I love this board, just not this thread for the most part.

 

[jfb]

I am new to the forum and have a question. We hiked Tecumseh yesterday. There was a couple of inches of fresh power over a very packed base. I wore snowshoes, someone else crampons (10 pt), someone else wore 6 pt and we also saw a couple of people bare booting. Everyone was very comfortable with their choice of traction. However we met another hiker who was on his way down as we were going up and he told us that out of courtesy for other hikers we should be wearing snowshoes as the crampons were ruining the trail. It didn't appear that we were damaging the trail. Should they not have been wearing crampons?

I usually try to bareboot unless either crampons or snowshoes are more appropriate for the conditions. I don't think you were doing anything wrong.

 

[CINDERSMOM]

I love this board, just not this thread for the most part.

Sorry, the question was a legitimate one and I got some very useful replies.

 

[David Metsky]

If viewsfromthetop is the way to enlightenment, (and who could question that?), and if this thread is a path, then it is a postholed-camponed-iced-over-moose-abused path and I am going to find another one.

I love this board, just not this thread for the most part.

This issue has a long and storied history on this and every other hiking message board. People feel strongly about the impact of postholing and about the freedom afforded to everyone out in the woods in winter. While it is possible to discuss it impassionately the very same issues will arise for the exact same reason: not everyone agrees on this.

Some threads will be spirited, almost to the point of getting heated. Mods will step if things get out of hand, but that hasn't happened in this thread yet and hopefully won't in the future. Not all threads are for everyone, I'm glad you still love the board. The shortest path to enlightenment is rarely a straight line.

-dave-

 

[Puck]

While I am on the soapbox, sitting glissaders (butt-sliders) leave the trail a slick sliding board...

Doug

I read glissading or butt sliding is a great cure for pin worms. Teach your dog this art.

 

[skiguy]

I am new to the forum and have a question. We hiked Tecumseh yesterday. There was a couple of inches of fresh power over a very packed base. I wore snowshoes, someone else crampons (10 pt), someone else wore 6 pt and we also saw a couple of people bare booting. Everyone was very comfortable with their choice of traction. However we met another hiker who was on his way down as we were going up and he told us that out of courtesy for other hikers we should be wearing snowshoes as the crampons were ruining the trail. It didn't appear that we were damaging the trail. Should they not have been wearing crampons?

I looked up the word etiquette on dictionary.com andTHIS is what I found.
The second definition: n: rules governing socially acceptable behavior I find to be somewhat applicable to Cindersmom original question. Hiking definitely seems to be a social behavior in my mind either with the people that you are with or might meet along the way. I try to have appropriate etiquette while on the trail although that etiquette can vary depending on the situation. By this I mean wherever I may be hiking I try to understand and abide by the local rules and regulations, and also by what the local conditions dictate. I think that as a hiker one needs to be sensitive to the fact you are not the only one out there and that your actions can greatly affect the experiences of others. Trail conditions can vary greatly as do people’s abilities therefore what works for one may not for another. Unfortunately postholing can be the death of a nice trail. I think most people do this because they are usually new to the sport, or have not layed out the cash, which can be a lot for snowshoes. I think most here would agree that once you have postholed…you really don’t want to do it again. Cindersmom I think you read the situation you were in on Tecumseh very well!

 

[slowpoke]

I eat my words: this thread is ok

My last post was not very well thought out.

CINDERSMOM: I think it was a great question. I'm glad that people want to respect eachother.

There were some very good replies. There were also some sidetracks that didn't add much. I tried to point this out without singling anyone out and kind of making a joke of it. I still don't want to say specifically what irks me because it would come across as aimed at particular users.

My post was another sidetrack as is this post, so I really don't have much to complain about. I wish I knew enough to contribute to the specifics of this thread in a technical manner.

Keep on forumin'

 

[Lawn Sale]

Just curious, but are you saying this thread as some postholing on it?

Seems a fitting analogy if you ask me .

 

[forestgnome]

I think most people do this because they are usually new to the sport, or have not layed out the cash, which can be a lot for snowshoes. I think most here would agree that once you have postholed…you really don’t want to do it again.

Good call! I suspect that nearly every act of postholing is done by people without much experience, who either did not anticipate the need for snowshoes, or thought it wouldn't be worth the expense. I'll bet very, very few people posthole for miles more than once, and I'll bet that noone who reads VFTT is among them!

The original of premise of this thread was actually about the use of crampons on a packed trail without postholing. The idea that this violates trail ettiquette is ridiculous. I would say that the descending snowshoer on Waumbeck that day was the one without ettiquette.

Happy Trails!

 

[DougPaul]

Good call! I suspect that nearly every act of postholing is done by people without much experience, who either did not anticipate the need for snowshoes, or thought it wouldn't be worth the expense. I'll bet very, very few people posthole for miles more than once, and I'll bet that noone who reads VFTT is among them!

Yes, but I have also seen people who religiously avoid the use of snowshoes--and when you see them use snowshoes, you discover that they don't know what they are doing... (This observation was made before VFTT existed, so I'm not making a reference to anyone here. And this group included supposedly experienced winter hikers.)

People also have different thresholds of when to start using them. For some it might be 3 inches of snow, for someone else, it might be 6 inches, a foot, or thigh deep.

And people also vary in deciding when to bring them (3+ lbs) and whether to turn back if they discover that they need to use them. (Thirty years ago, one couldn't assume that a trail would be broken out in the Whites, today many popular trails are broken out rapidly after a new snow fall.)

My point is that while I suspect that very few go out with the intent to posthole a trail, there are a number of factors that go into whether someone actually does posthole a trail. And sometimes, when one gets back to the car, one realizes that he would have done it differently if he had known beforehand what the conditions were.

Doug

 

[woodstrider]

Not this again

well, if you are post-holing, than yes, you should put on snow shoes. If the trail is supporting your weight then ....just go ahead.

Even cranky people get out to the woods and go hiking...I've run across a few "spoilers". ***Text deleted due to bad language.***

 

[Tom Rankin]

... F***

A little civility please. The
rules do state 'no foul language'. Personally, I don't care if you swear, but try to imagine a father with his 8 year old daughter sitting beside him and reading this board...

 

[David Metsky]

<mod hat on>
Woodstrider, please tone it down. You can make your point without swearing.
<mod hat off>

 

[sierra]

First let me say I do enjoy using this board, I think its moderated fine and Im a flaming liberal at best. I think it contributes in many ways to the hiking community, BUT I think all boards such as this also have a small negative impact ( no fault to those who run it). That being, every aspect of hiking is torn down, analized, and many come out with their version of the right way, sometimes creating a consensus that many frequent users of such boards take as gospel. Im old school, many on this board are new to hiking, to me anyone with less then say 300 4ks under your belt is new to hiking, sorry. That being said, I believe many choices we make should be our own, regardless of what the hiking community says is right or wrong. Many new climbers take their urban views with them into the woods, while many leave them behind.I climb for myself, I havent even carried snowshoes yet this year, I dont use them unless I have to, I do always have crampons though, imo those are not an option. If I beat up a trail or sink in a little sorry, but thats the breaks, make do or go somewhere else. Dont get me wrong, Im certainly not out to ruin anyones day out there, but heck, I climb the way I want and the guy behind me can also do what they want, if the trails postholes deal, its called adapting to your surroudings. As far as the Dacks, Ive rockclimbed there but would not hike in any area that has snowshoes laws in place, please.Oh the original point in question regarding hiking in crampons,Ill chaulk that up to a misunderstanding or someone who has no clue what they are talking about.

 

[dug]

edited:

Wrote something inflamatory. Changed my mind. Handled it differently....

Carry on.

 

[Peakbagr]

Dave beat me to the punch. I cautioned Woodstrider that the next time he uses a potty-mouth, he gets sent to his room for a month. And we're not kidding. He's welcome to converse anyway he wants, but just not here.
A member with that many posts ought to know better.
Tom, my apologies to your daughter.