Hiking, Scrambling, Climbing and Skiing New Slides

[--M.]

So it seems there is a whole inventory of new action on the slopes this year, with a lot of discussion about first ascents and looking forward to first tracks.

I'd like to hear from the veterans about the science and tactics of playing on fresh slides.

When there's a two- or five-foot base on them this winter, will they avalanche differently during their first year than they will after a ten-year seasoning process?

Is it assumed that they're naturally unstable and go through an annunciation process, where they give up their secrets and let us know how to approach them, settling out over a couple of years (or millenia)?

Or do you just have at 'em, assuming they're no different than the ones we've already seen for years & years?

Wasn't there a recent change to one of the major routes on Cannon Mountain because a slab fell? I assume 'new' rock has hazards that settle out over time.

What are the smart plays for this coming year on all these factory-fresh surfaces?

Thank you!

 

[leaf]

Yeah, there's been big rock falls on Cannon, but the more recent one, in my understanding, didn't change the route much and the grade remained the same. Rock fall on Cannon is common, can happen at anytime, anywhere on the cliff and any climber should approach it as so.

I don't think there would be any difference between avalanche hazard on the slides the first season as opposed to any other subsequent season. I will say, though, that if I'm going to climb the Trap Dike this ice season, I would do it mid-season and not in spring conditions where the ice starts melting and freezing and re-melting possibly loosening some of big rocks that found their way into the Dike from the storm.

 

[DougPaul]

I don't think there would be any difference between avalanche hazard on the slides the first season as opposed to any other subsequent season.

As vegetation fills in the slide, it may help to anchor the bottom layers of the snow. However, the sliding surface can still occur above the vegetation.

Skier's rule of thumb: if there is enough room to ski between the trees, there is enough room for the snow to avalanche...


We also need to distinguish between snow/ice and rock avalanches. (Either, however, can still kill you.)

Doug

 

[leaf]

As vegetation fills in the slide, it may help to anchor the bottom layers of the snow. However, the sliding surface can still occur above the vegetation.

It's my understanding that most of time the threat of avalanches is from the upper layers of the snow.. powder/unconsolidated layers resting on top of icey/consolidated layers.

Good example, while climbing Landslide Gully last winter, I came upon this section and from climbing there the previous year I knew there was a giant ice slab underneath this snow load so we skirted around it. I have no doubts that if me and my partner walked on top of it, something was going to go.

We also need to distinguish between snow/ice and rock avalanches. (Either, however, can still kill you.)

Right, my thought of the avalanche threat not being any different each season was talking about snow. The Trap Dike, I was talking about ice/rock fall triggered by loose and dislodging rock. But again, this can occur at anytime, anywhere as well.

 

[DougPaul]

It's my understanding that most of time the threat of avalanches is from the upper layers of the snow.. powder/unconsolidated layers resting on top of icey/consolidated layers.

They can happen either way. The probabilities probably vary with terrain, location, history, and current conditions.

Heat comes up from the ground and sometimes the ground isn't frozen when the first snow falls. These can combine to create a slushy bottom layer. Or water draining from above can collect on the ground surface to create a slushy layer.

Presumably reducing the probability of a weakness close to the ground reduces the overall probability of a slide. Whether the difference is significant is another question. (Probably depends on terrain, location, history, and current conditions...)

Ain't inexact science fun?

Doug

 

[leaf]

Heat comes up from the ground and sometimes the ground isn't frozen when the first snow falls. These can combine to create a slushy bottom layer. Or water draining from above can collect on the ground surface to create a slushy layer.

Ok, I can believe that. and then fast forward during the spring months when the top ice melts and water pentrates downward then thats when bottom layer snow instabilities can occur.

Or the water comes shooting out from an ice dam when you stick your tool in.. gah..

 

[DougPaul]

Or the water comes shooting out from an ice dam when you stick your tool in.. gah..

You mean like that foot high geyser that I created when I made a hole for a screw at the top of Pinnacle?

My rope went down the fall line and froze to the face...

Doug

 

[sierra]

I avoid loose scree type slides in the spring or in any warmer temps, espechally if thier in the direct sun. Once exposed rocks rise above the freeze line they can become missles for sure. I prefer all the slide to be frozen as well as all the rock frozen in place, so I make these routes midwinter destinations, the spring is NOT the time to ascend these type of slides and if you hear water, well your uscwap. As far as Cannon goes, Ive seen rock slides myself while climbing there, both big and small, Ive been at the base when sections have let go. To be honest there is no ryme or reason to the slides, one area can slide twice in a year or twice in 50 years, its really just random. The only time I avoid cannon is in the spring, you got to give the girl time to shake off her winter coat for the year.

 

[DougPaul]

The worst time for rockfall is often when it gets below freezing at night and is warm enough (sun + air temps) for melting during the day. Expanding ice pushes and breaks the rock and thawing allows it to fall the next morning or day. In the NE, this usually occurs during the spring and fall. (The spring also adds clearing the winter-fractured rock.)

For some climbs one starts early to get out from under the melting and rockfall caused by the sun hitting the face above.

Doug

 

[cushetunk]

It's my understanding that most of time the threat of avalanches is from the upper layers of the snow.. powder/unconsolidated layers resting on top of icey/consolidated layers.

Good example, while climbing Landslide Gully last winter, I came upon this section and from climbing there the previous year I knew there was a giant ice slab underneath this snow load so we skirted around it. I have no doubts that if me and my partner walked on top of it, something was going to go.

This is a dangerously incomplete understanding of avalanches.

 

[leaf]

This is a dangerously incomplete understanding of avalanches.

thanks for filling in my incomplete understanding. now i'm better informed.

 

[J.Dub]

thanks for filling in my incomplete understanding. now i'm better informed.

Sounds like somebody might be in the market for a Level 1 AIARE class?

(PM me, I know a guy...)

 

[cushetunk]

thanks for filling in my incomplete understanding. now i'm better informed.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a jerk!

I was, however, in a rush and didn't get to expand. I would suggest that all sorts of combinations of snow layers and all types of slabs can produce slides, and that it's prudent to be on the lookout any time there is the correct slope angle, cohesive snow, and a surface for it to slide on.

For example, the picture you showed definitely looks scary, but I think this situation should raise some red flags even if there wasn't ice beneath.

Anyway, you don't really want me filling in your incomplete understanding, cause I'm no expert at this. Take one of those avalanche classes with someone who actually knows what they are talking about!

Or the book Snow Sense is great, if you can find a copy:

http://www.amazon.com/Snow-Sense-Ev...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1315969201&sr=1-1

 

[leaf]

Oh, absolutely! I wasn't saying that's the only way an avalanche can occur. I was just trying to address the question posed in the thread.. about newly formed slides versus old slides.

Aww.. too bad you aren't a jerk, we could of had a forum brawl.

Cheers!

 

[DougPaul]

As long as we are on the topic, "The Avalanche Handbook" by McClung and Schaerer is worth a read: http://www.amazon.com/Avalanche-Handbook-David-McClung/dp/0898868092/ref=pd_sim_b_3

Doug

 

[--M.]

Thanks for the titles! Look forward to that.

Now, for the constellation of factors included (angles, layers, slabs, etc.), does the fact of the surface's brandy-new status not come into play? Could anyone tell the difference between this year's avalanche season and any other (based on a new surface)?

I have the same question for right now (pre-snow). I see lots of people all excited to get out there (especially in NY), and actually doing it, which looks awesome. I just wonder what those who know are thinking about it and when they would wanna go. Is it just as safe/not safe now as it will be in a year (or five)? If one wanted to go, should the newness of the faces factor into the decision (as would weather, bugs, partners, and other subjective variables)? For instance, I can see the Trap Dike being a whole different thing at the moment, needing a very careful reappraisal before re-doing it (not that I have, yet). The new action on Wright seems ready for play.

I have a new knee, but when the time is right, I'm all over gettin' out there. Just wonderin' if there's a discernible difference (for this question) between the previous menu of choices and the whole new palette available to us.

Thanks for the input!

 

[skiguy]

IMO one of the best ways to understand rockfall,slides, and avalanches is to be as in close touch to the evolvement of the surface. Whether it be a gully, slope, or face prior chronological knowledge of the given surface and its history going forward is critical to the understanding of it's stability at a given time. That being said a present assessment by hands on or reputable local knowledge is going to give you the best information regarding stability. Therefore IMO the "New Slides" will be a continuing process which will need close observation going forward regarding safe travel wether it be up or down.

 

[David Metsky]

Aww.. too bad you aren't a jerk, we could of had a forum brawl.

And I was itching to pull out the moderator hat...

 

[sierra]

Looking at snow is not anyway to determine if the slope is safe, you dig a pit. Wind is also a huge factor in causing avalanches. Remember as well if you suck at testing the snow and do get caught in an avalanche, dont panic, swim and stay at the top, at the last minute keep your hands in front of your face (for an air pocket). I rode a slide for about 400ft, stayed on top the whole way, I was lucky since I was solo. Conditions that day, in the sun, low 40's and water running underneeth, I learned something that day believe me.

 

[DougPaul]

Looking at snow is not anyway to determine if the slope is safe, you dig a pit.

Digging pits (and all the other tests) can only assess the stability of the test spot (to the depth of the pit), not the entire area. And, of course, a release could occur from above your route.

There is no 100% reliable way of avoiding snow slides other than completely avoiding any terrain that has the slightest possibility of avalanche and any possible run-out zones. Even professionally controlled ski slopes occasionally avalanche...

Doug