Hiking with your K9

[smitty77]

The whole follow the leader/leader of the pack thing is huge.

Eventhough I don't agree with some of his methods for treating really problematic dogs, Cesar Milan (aka "The Dog Whisperer") demonstrates this technique really well on those nuisance dogs that just won't seem to listen. My dog is like that on some days, and I've been working really hard at projecting a dominant attitude when I want the dog to do something. She really responds to one-on-one training, but she still needs work when out in public. Like Trooper, I keep Mika on a leash and she gets a little wary when other dogs come bounding at her, especially if there's more than one. My previous neighbor used to own two nasty dogs, a bull mastiff and a rotti, that used to get loose and come over to our yard an harass my poor 6 month old pup. I think the negative experiences did a lot of psycological damage to the dog which I'm still trying to correct. The fact that my other neighbor's dog comes over once in a while to steal Mika's meal isn't helping my cause either.

Keep at it. And keep the touchy-feely people at bay if that is what's best for Trooper and yourself. I had a similar problem with my cat at my yard sale a few years ago. One lady came up to my wife (who was holding our "bi-polar" cat) and asked to pet it. My wife insited that she leave the cat alone, as she doesn't like strange people. "Oh, but I love cats." she said as she put her hand on the cats head. One hiss and swipe later there were four bleeding scratches down the back of the poor woman's hand. Some people just won't listen, and it a shame that you may get sued if they have to learn the hard way.

Smitty

 

[una_dogger]

There are alot of pioneers in the Leader of the Pack training philosophy with a much longer track record and better actual training (as opposed to minute by minute management) techniques than CM.

A few of my favorites for basic pet dog behavior modification and training are:
Barbara Woodhouse
Brian Kilcommons and Sarah Wilson (have worked with them)
Pat McConnell

They blend the positive/negative reinforcement aspects of human dog interaction very well.

I stay away from all negative (CM) and all positive (Dunbar, others) training philosophies, personally.

 

[banjolady]

i think most of us on this list would agree with CM that dogs need adequate exercise. even if he is just a media hound, if this message gets transmitted he'll have done some good. many behavior problems result from boredom and excess energy. since i have been hiking every day, my dogs have very few behavior problems. at home, they are rugs. I also use a zapper collar when necessary--at one point one dog would not listen and come when called, she'd run up to people barking and sometimes nip them so i zapped her once or twice when she refused to come, give her a treat when she comes to mommy and now she listens great. my herding dogs, they learn fast. occasionally she needs a refresher but it's like once every few months if that often. my favorite method is a positive one- "watch mommy" and hold treats out when people pass on the trail, get them sitting and watching mommy so that they are not harassing other people. I also use the ruffwear breakaway leashes which reside on their collars so i can grab them and leash them instantly if the situation looks rough. the main thing is that I need to be aware of possible threatening situations before the dogs are so i can act. once they are charged up and running away it is hard to interrupt that behavior--much easier to prevent than stop it.

 

[Maddy]

and it a shame that you may get sued if they have to learn the hard way.

Smitty

Yes indeed!
Lawsuits are the big reason I tell people that my dogs do bite and to please keep their distance. I cannot believe the number of parents who let their very young children toddle up to big dogs and do nothing to stop them. I sometimes wonder if maybe they are looking for money!
I was walking recently on the trolley trail at Norwottuck with Bernie and up the path comes comes a woman with a loose dog who is heading for us at top speed and another one on a leash. The loose dog had no recall skills whatsoever. Bernie was getting all cranked up and I finally said to her..."if they have a fight mine will win. He's four times bigger than yours." It took that before she turned back and hiked in the other direction. Her vagabond ran after her but I had to keep yelling at him the entire time not to approach us.
I now go primarily to the rail trail because about 99% of dogs there are leashed.
I really don't want a big lawsuit and I get really tired of fighting with other people's dogs when I am trying to have a nice afternoon walk.
I will never forget the Columbus day hike I was trying to take up to Sterling Pond on Smugglers. It was a disaster. I ended flat on the ground being chased by two loose Rotties and my own Akita was absolutely beside herself on her leash. You can't blame her. She was sure we were all going to be killed. If that wasn't bad enough there were loose pit bulls also. That hike was aborted for the rail trail in Stowe!
Kodi and Bernie both do well with the "leave it" command but that only goes so far if they feel that the other dog poses a real threat.

 

[una_dogger]

Public service announcement regarding physically corrective methods

Just wanted to mention that when I referred to negative reinforcement I refer to removing something, and when I refer to positve, I refer to adding something. That's the basic tenet of those training terms and each dog is different in terms of what works for them.

Corrective based training, IMHO, should only be used under the guidance of a professional and only after the groundwork for learning a specific behavior (or avoiding one) has been in place for some time, to be fair to the dog.

 

[Dugan]

Just wanted to mention that when I referred to negative reinforcement I refer to removing something, and when I refer to positve, I refer to adding something.

Very good point. Positive and negative are often misconstrued to equate positive=reward and negative=punishment.

A shock collar is actually a "positive" reinforcement tool. Not in the sense that it is good, but that it ADDS an element to a situation.

In a case where a dog is already excited (e.g. running out, jumping, barking), it serves only to ADD stimulus to the situation.

Think of a situation that makes you excited and angry. What do you think will calm you more: receiving pain stimulus from an unknown cause, or having a trusted person touch you on the arm and draw you away? Now, say you've figured out that is the trusted person who applied pain stimulus - are you going to be inclined to keep learning to trust and rely on them?

In a worst case scenario, you will teach your dog that the situation CAUSES the pain, and the dog will learn that he better lash out even faster and harder.

 

[una_dogger]

Right, if someone is going to use a shock collar the progession would be something like:

dog -- sees stimulus, no other reaction
person -- commands dog to come to them (dog fully understands command and command has been "proofed" in all situations including when dog is on some form of long tether but at distance from human as well as off lead)
dog--looks at human, disregards, than looks at stimulus
person -- delivers lightest correction possible to distract, not harm, dog
dog -- comes to human
human -- rewards dog



The dog is being corrected for not complying to the command. The dog's behavior has been shaped by the consequence of his choice, cause and effect. Once the dog is in flight and stimulated, the correction of the collar is no longer associated with the command. The dog will now either associate the stimulus with pain or fear or confusion -- depending on the level of the correction, and will transfer that pain/fear/confusion to the stimulus -- stimulus equals something to be afraid of/aggress at. If the dog figures out the correction is coming from the trainer, the training has failed, and the relationship is erroded. Same applies if the dog only obeys the command when the collar is on. Dog thinks collar makes things happen, not his own behavior/choices.

Because timing is so critical in dog training, training the human in the use of the collar prior to implementing it on the dog is imperative.
That is why most trainers do own an ecollar, but hardly use them , because very few dogs who've had all of the groundwork training need them. There are instances where there may be a dog who does require this tool, used properly, in certain situations , where the outcome of non compliance of the command is unsafe for the dog (eg, chasing cars).


Good points, Dugan.

I guess we are digressing here though, and getting off topic.

 

[banjolady]

ideally, the shock should be associated with dog choosing not to listen to pack leader, getting too far away from pack leader and that the relief should be associated with obeying and coming back to the pack leader. i agree that this training tool should be utilized RARELY. in my experience, the collar has worked effectively to correct behavior without causing any disruption in the relationship between dog and owner or increased anxiety in the dog. the collar gets the dogs attention and provides a distraction and interruption to the behavior. anyway,i think we all love our dogs and try to do the best we can to make them good citizens on the trail. that's all from me about this.