Hot Vs Cold Water

[DougPaul]

Forget the physics and just drink Poland Springs water. That stuff does not freeze. Well, it does freeze, but you need to get it really cold for it to freeze.

Maybe it has been "Doctored"...


More likely it has been filtered in a way that removes particles that would form ice crystal nucleation sites.

Doug

 

[hikehike]

As an aside, does anyone recall recently seeing news regarding toxic chemicals leaching from drinking water bottles? I think I saw something on the news 3+/- weeks ago regarding this. I believe the jist of it was that certain types of plastic has these problems...... sorry for my ambiguity but that is all this I recall.... Any how, if this is the case, then possibly heating/boiling the water before you put it in the nalgene bottle may possibly amplify this problem (ie heat causing such chemicals to further leach out)...

 

[hikehike]

An additional note regarding putting boiling water in nalgene bottles. Keep in mind that the Nalgene plastic eventually becomes brittle from reheating and age.... I had a few older Nalgene bottles crack like an egg at the most unopportune times. Fortunately during both instances I was not in a critical situation, so they were fairly comical at the time....

Instance #1 happened when I was road bicycling in and around Plattsburg/Dannemora area and the Nalgene bottle slipped out of my pannier, hit the pavement and cracked and immediately drained. I had extra water bottles, so all worked out well.


Instance #2 happened during a summer hike along the Gothics Ridge. It broke in my pack when I let the pack drop a small distance when taking off. The Nalgene cracked and I ended up with a wet pack and some wet clothes and less drinking water for the hike.


I initially thought that Instance #1 was a fluke, in that the bottle took a hard fall onto the road pavement and at a pretty good speed. After instance #2, I decided to replace all my Nalgenes with brand new ones....

 

[DougPaul]

An additional note regarding putting boiling water in nalgene bottles. Keep in mind that the Nalgene plastic eventually becomes brittle from reheating and age....

HDPE or polycarbonate?

HDPE becomes brittle in 20-25 years, hot water or no. A well-known problem (if you have had them long enough...)

Doug

 

[Lawn Sale]

Maybe it has been "Doctored"...


More likely it has been filtered in a way that removes particles that would form ice crystal nucleation sites.

Doug

Interesting. I have run a bunch of bottled waters through my lab and not noticed any anomalies. The Poland Springs water has slightly less contaminants in it, but not enough to make a hill of beans difference (0.005 NTU). The pH is about the same as others. The metals and chemical contents all have negligent differences.

Boiled water that has been cooled has been proven to freeze quicker, due to less entrained air, but the delta-T (temperature) is a major factor in relation to time for freezing for water in general, if other factors remain constant.

I routinely invert my nalgene in the insulated holder as it does in fact freeze much faster. On a longer hike, I always keep a spare full nalgene in my pack as the one on my hip will freeze easily to the point I cannot break through the remaining ice.

 

[hikehike]

HDPE or polycarbonate?

HDPE becomes brittle in 20-25 years, hot water or no. A well-known problem (if you have had them long enough...)

Doug

Thanks for the info....... I believe they were the HDPE type (whitish/opaque).... So it was probably their age....

 

[DougPaul]

Maybe it has been "Doctored"...


More likely it has been filtered in a way that removes particles that would form ice crystal nucleation sites.

Interesting. I have run a bunch of bottled waters through my lab and not noticed any anomalies. The Poland Springs water has slightly less contaminants in it, but not enough to make a hill of beans difference (0.005 NTU). The pH is about the same as others. The metals and chemical contents all have negligent differences.

The first line was a joke (as in a certain brand of "antifreeze" was added) and the second line was just a guess. Anything that would cause any signifcant freezing point depression would be obvious, so a lack of nucleation sites allowing the water to supercool seemed like a good guess.

Doug

 

[peak_bgr]

Here's my experinces on the subject. I'm no scientist, but it doesn't take one to experience what works.

1-Gatorade dry mix will help slow down the freezing effect, makes more of a slush, could be due to the sugars.

2-An insulated water bottle parka by OR will keep water from freezing in your pack for pretty much all day. If on your hip or outside your pack it will eventually freeze.

3-Insulated socks will only work if buried deep in your pack. The reason insulated socks keep your feet warm is you are also producing heat. Water does not produce heat.

4-Placing your water bottle upside down in anything or anywhere is a great way to not freeze-THE TOP OPENING-of your water bottle. Air helps water freeze, if the air is at the bottom of the water bottle it will freeze first and the top opening should stay clear of thick ice.

5-A fuller water bottle freezes slower

6-Hot water will freeze slower if in an insulated area, if not it does tend to cool quicker because of the warmer temps.

7-Place any extra water bottle either wraped up in something in your pack, closer to your back or on top. Never on the outside walls where cold temperature are. Placing the water bottle closer to the top allows the water bottle to move around more keeping the water moving. The same effect as current in a stream, it freezes last.

8-80 proof single malt won't freeze.

 

[jbreen]

I have actually left bottles of Poland Spring water in my car overnight with temps in the teens and they didn't freeze solid. How water doesn't freeze at 15 degrees below freezing over a period of 8 hours is beyond me.

Last winter, I took an unopened and still liquid bottle of Poland Spring from my car (probably about 10F) into my house. In the few seconds it took to walk inside, it froze solid. Maybe all you had to do to freeze the water in the warehouse was give it a good shake?

 

[DougPaul]

Last winter, I took an unopened and still liquid bottle of Poland Spring from my car (probably about 10F) into my house. In the few seconds it took to walk inside, it froze solid. Maybe all you had to do to freeze the water in the warehouse was give it a good shake?

Sounds like the water was supercooled...

Doug

 

[Little Rickie]

Last winter, I took an unopened and still liquid bottle of Poland Spring from my car (probably about 10F) into my house. In the few seconds it took to walk inside, it froze solid. Maybe all you had to do to freeze the water in the warehouse was give it a good shake?

If water is in motion it usually will not freeze until it stops moving or it needs to get colder to freeze. That's why water taken from a running stream turns to slush in the bucket when you scoop it up.

Frozen water expands as it freezes, that why ice floates, unless it's from a glacer.

My guess is the bottle doesn't let the water expand enough for the water to turn solid, crystalize and the bottle is strong enough not to bust like the other bottles. I think it would have froze if the temperature got colder? Ever have a beer slush up when you pop the cap off?

Again a guess. Your hand might have warmed the plastic just enough so the bottle expanded and allowed the water to crystalize or the kinetic energy you added at this low tempature nudged the molecules so they could line up and crystalize, freeze. Water acts differently at different temperatures and pressures. Is't it more dense at 34 degrees?

I use plastic tonic water bottles for water bottles and they often don't freeze when left in the car. I'll have to bring some in and see if what happens.

Little Rickie

by the way hi, i'm new to this forum

 

[DougPaul]

My guess is the bottle doesn't let the water expand enough for the water to turn solid, crystalize and the bottle is strong enough not to bust like the other bottles. I think it would have froze if the temperature got colder?

No. Ice can burst metal pipes and fracture rocks--the plastic bottle doesn't stand a chance.

Again a guess. Your hand might have warmed the plastic just enough so the bottle expanded and allowed the water to crystalize or the kinetic energy you added at this low tempature nudged the molecules so they could line up and crystalize, freeze. Water acts differently at different temperatures and pressures. Is't it more dense at 34 degrees?

The observed behavior is the classic behavior of a supercooled liquid. If it doesn't have any nucleation (crystal starting) particles and isn't agitated, water can cool down below the freezing point and remain liquid. Once freezing starts (in this case due to agitation), the ice crystals will grow. As some of the water changes to ice, it gives up heat which warms the contents of the bottle. The process continues until the contents warm to 0C. Additional external heat loss is required to freeze the rest of the water.

Doug

 

[Little Rickie]

Super cool!

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen01/gen01672.htm