How do YOU define "Wilderness"?

[TCD]

I think you have to look at what you want wilderness to "do." There are a lot of answers to that; most are in three categories: aesthetic; environmental; or philosophical.

Aesthetics are easy. Stand near a trail and look at the trail, and you see a work of man. Turn the other way, and you see "wilderness." So the whole discussion is silly. If you don't like it, don't look at it. If you don't like trails, or people, bushwhack. You can walk 150' from the trail on either side. Even in the crowded high peaks wilderness, I find "solitude" on sunny summer saturdays with no problem, any time I want to.

Environmental reasons for wilderness are many, including air, water, wildlife, etc. Much of the original drive for the Adirondack Wilderness was the protection of water sources for downstate. These are all good reasons for large tracts of undeveloped land. On the flip side, a few, or even quite a few people walking through a large wild area will not hurt the environment. The impact of visitors is mostly aesthetic.

Philosophical reasons for wilderness can lead to lengthy discussions. Many folks feel that large empty tracts where no one ever goes are good to have, just because. There may be merit to that. I think there are a lot of areas out west and in Canada that fit that bill, but as many have mentioned, not too many areas in NY and NE. That's what I meant on the other thread about force fitting. An example would be Marcy Dam. It's been developed for hundreds of years. There's a road, a dam, a Ranger station, several lean tos. But on paper, it's "wilderness." We need to decide what it really is. If we're going to try to make it like a "real" wilderness (say, like northern Canada), then all that stuff has to go. But it's a hard position to defend saying "We'll keep most of this stuff here; but it's wilderness, so we can selectively ban a certain few things in the name of wilderness."

So in the end, a lot of it is honesty. Whoever is in charge at the time says "this is the way I want it to be," and then invokes some fluffed up philosophy. The honest answer is "this is the way I want it to be, and I'm getting my way because I got elected, or funded, or I won the lawsuit...", or whatever the real reason is.

TCD

 

[onestep]

A place where you are pretty much exempt from rules and can do as you please.

Due to lax enforcement, commercial forests are ofen closer to this than official "Wilderness".

I knew someone here would express what I feel about "wilderness".
Thanks Roy!!

I stood in the middle of the ADK's this winter looking out over a marvelous view of peaks and valleys. My hiking partner said something that I could not feel... "look at all the wilderness, it's great".

This spring standing atop of Tumbledown Mtn out in the Beaudry, the same hiking partner again said "look at all the wilderness, it's great". I could feel it.

There are so many definitions of wilderness... the only one I understand is the one I feel.

In the Whites, the ADK's, the Green Mtn's there are designated 'wilderness' areas. There are rules and regulations and enforcers and consequenses. I find it hard to feel 'wilderness' with all that regulation surrounding me.

In the commercial forests of northern Maine I feel 'wilderness'.

I use to feel 'wilderness' along the Appalachian Trial in Maine. Not any more. What changed? The establishment of Government regulations "preserving the wilderness". I felt the 'wilderness' more when the only thing 'protecting' the trail was the large private landowners, ie the working forest.

I know this is begining to ramble...

Onestep

 

[KayakDan]

"I can't tell you what it looks like,but I know it when I see it!"

Wilderness is more a state of mind,than an actual place. Everyone has a different level of what makes them feel they are in wilderness. MarcHowes mentioned "the woods",and that is certainly one of the wilderness places,but there are others.
I recall vividly,the feeling of wilderness,standing in the middle of the volcanic landscape of Iceland,50 miles from any town,on a gravel road-nothing man made in sight,and absolutely no sound,but the wind. That was wilderness.

Kayak camping on the offshore islands in Maine,I am within sight of the mainland,with lights and activity. But out there on the islands,it's still wilderness. No direct contact with the rest of the world.

Camped a few miles in off a trail in winter,nobody else in sight,that's my wilderness too. I love the woods at dusk in the winter,it's the most relaxing place to me.

When you're miles off shore,and the sails are full,and the only sound is the water rushing past the hull,no engines,no traffic,no trails even,just you and the wind and the water. That's wilderness to me, too.

I guess it comes to having your personal space expanded to a point where you feel"wilderness". Everyones boundaries are different,as is the definition of "wilderness"

 

[albee]

I stood in the middle of the ADK's this winter looking out over a marvelous view of peaks and valleys. My hiking partner said something that I could not feel... "look at all the wilderness, it's great".

This spring standing atop of Tumbledown Mtn out in the Beaudry, the same hiking partner again said "look at all the wilderness, it's great". I could feel it.

Isn't there a man-made fire tower on top of Tumbledown Mtn??

 

[onestep]

Isn't there a man-made fire tower on top of Tumbledown Mtn??

Yup!... a rusty old relic from days gone by.

 

[NewHampshire]

I went up SIgnal Ridge to Carrigain today. Saw moose droppings, bear droppings, a snowshoe hare (in summer coat), a grouse, and on the drive up a small fox. Seems like Wilderness to me!

Brian

 

[Neil]

I do believe that as long as those of us who treasure wilderness are not able to refine our thinking beyond referring to it as a "feeling" or a "state of mind" then wilderness as we think we "feel" it it will gradually be eroded to nothing in very short order.

I acknowledge that it is very difficult to lay down a definition that serves to define and protect wilderness.

Wilderness to me is a large (qualitative descriptor = bad!) area within which there is to be found no more than the results of the chaotic processes of natural forces, free of man-made input. This includes forces that are millions of years old (geological) and those that are ongoing at this time.

 

[sardog1]

IMO (and it's only that, not a prescriptive statement for policy making):

If there isn't a great bear, a great cat, or a great fish ready to eat you, it ain't the big W.
​

So, nothing in the U.S. (1) east of Montana, or (2) south of Colorado -- Utah -- Idaho -- Washington, or (3) on any water body lacking salinity.

(And no, Ursus americanus does not count. And if you think you have one of those big kitties that throws spotted kittens, "show me the money.")

 

[timmus]

Speaking for myself:

Wilderness is where all I have learned outside is useless, and only by going often I can built the spirit required to be comfortable in it.

It can be anywhere; I got that feeling the first time I walked the streets of Manhattan after 11:00pm.

I love it, and being off trail surrounded by miles of thick woods gives it to me. But I will eventually feel comfortable, and I'll need to go further to get the feeling of wilderness. That's allright, I believe the planet is big enough to keep me going until I die.

 

[Neil]

Speaking for myself:
Wilderness is where all I have learned outside is useless

That aint necessarily so....at least not based on what I've seen when hiking with you.

-perseverance
-endurance
-self confidence
-mental toughness

-I almost forgot: how to swim.

Ever get the feeling when you go into a wilderness area that you're like an astronaut launching yourself into space? Ie. You'd not last very long unless you are properly geared up, including food and clothing.

 

[timmus]

That aint necessarily so....at least not based on what I've seen when hiking with you.

-perseverance
-endurance
-self confidence
-mental toughness

-I almost forgot: how to swim.

I might have learned all this in the woods... You don't know EVERYTHING about me, Neil. Did you know I was dropped for a week in a deep forest when I was 4 years old ? Without any gear, water or food ? I made friends with bears and wolves and my parents were very proud of me.

 

[grouseking]

I have no set definition....though I used to. I used to define it as a place far away from a road that had few humans. These days, I don't know....making up a definition for wilderness seems silly to me, esp here in the east. Maybe if I had experience hiking/camping out west, I'd have a very different outlook. However, I can think of a few things that make me feel like I am in a wild place...though I would not necessarily consider the area as a wilderness...

1. I'm a hiker who sticks to trails, so if a trail is particularly difficult to follow (keeps disappearing, becomes a stream etc etc.) I'm thinking of the Hancock Notch Trail in NH at the height of land. That was really difficult to follow at the time and I felt pretty vulnerable that day.

2. A very rocky trail. Ones with huge boulders that are strewn about, in the way. Basically, if the trail makes me think twice about how I'm going to walk, or if it makes me worry about injuring myself, I consider that wild.

3. Looking at a grand view...with no roads. If I don't see a road, or any man made structure, it feels wild to me. So basically, Mt Washington ruins that feeling on many occasions.

4.Backcountry ponds/wildlife. I find these places to be esp wild, because they are so peacefully quiet you start to hear things. Plus, IMO ponds are almost better then mountaintop views and usually people crowd to the mtn top and stay away from the ponds, leaving me alone to relax. Then, there is the possibility of wildlife...when there is water, the animals are usually not too far away. So I'd have to say I feel like I'm in a wild setting at ponds.

5. Weather... Imagine being on Mt Adams on a beautiful 60 degree day in August with 10 mph winds, and then imagine being up there during an intense lightning storm. I think weather plays the biggest role in making me feel wild. As much as humans have done to the outdoors, mother nature stays the same (lets not get into global warming). What I mean is, its unforgiving if you aren't prepared. That makes me feel vulnerable and in a wild setting.

Even though I listed all those things, I still don't think I can make a definition of wilderness. It will prob change tomorrow, or next time I go hiking and have a new experience.

I think it was Sleeping Bear who was saying she was going to write a thesis on this....good luck! Our culture seems to help to change the definition on a daily basis. I mean I'm a perfect example....its changed like 10 times over the past several years.

grouseking

 

[Neil]

Take a walk on the wild side.

The original question asked us to conjure up our subjective definition of wilderness. In spite of some posters suggesting there aint no such a thing in the NE I beg to differ. Based on a few forays into some of the Adirondack trackless mountain regions I believe that wilderness is alive and well and living in upstate New York. OK, you can cross most of it in a single day but you can also draw an itinerary that will allow you to roam for several days without seeing any signs or symptoms of the handiwork of man.

A total absence of man's handiwork is a key element of wilderness. The presence of animals that can (and will) kill you given the chance is not my idea of wilderness.

If it's solitude you're looking for well, all you have to do is head to the dacks and take a walk on the wild side. (You and Holly from eff ell ay).

And Timmus, I think it's a good thing I don't know EVERYTHING about you. As for your stint with the bears and wolves at age 4, that explains EVERYTHING. Hé Hé.

Mille bises.

 

[cushetunk]

I do believe that as long as those of us who treasure wilderness are not able to refine our thinking beyond referring to it as a "feeling" or a "state of mind" then wilderness as we think we "feel" it it will gradually be eroded to nothing in very short order.

I think this is a very astute observation. I also think that in order to protect some sense of wilderness, we must seriously grapple with some contradictions. First, we need to reconcile the fact that wilderness is both a human construct and a real thing. Many things are human constructs, but that doesn't mean we must abandon them as useful concepts.

Second, we need to reconcile the fact that wilderness in many places has been deliberately set aside in (what I see as) an act of human humility. We have drawn a boundary and said no further. But the precise question of what will go no further is under debate. We have agreed that ATVs, roads, clearcuts, powerlines, and mechanical tools will go no further. We have also agreed that trails will go further (possibly with blazes).

I think designating wilderness can be both a very clear mandate to let nature be almost entirely in charge, and also a very thorny question of how much human intervention is too much. It seems that debate over what should be allowed in wilderness is very healthy, and that simply sticking to the status quo (allowing blazes and bridges, for example) is entirely contrary to the spirit of designating wilderness.

If people had, more than a half-century ago, stuck to the status quo, there might not be any wilderness to argue about today.

Finally, because this is a hiking board, the focus is on wilderness for recreation. But there are many other arguments extended for wilderness, such as protecting biodiversity, or ecosystem functions, or spiritual reasons, or many others. For each of these reasons, the debate over what wilderness is or should be is as intense as the debate about wilderness recreation.

 

[Neil]

"Something will have gone out of us as a people if we ever let the remaining wilderness be destroyed." Walter Stegner

I grew up in Manitoba, Canada and of course there was not much in the way of civilization north of my hometown, Winnipeg. Even though I was keen on the outdoors and did a lot of canoing, snowshoeing, hiking etc. in the immediate area I never reflected on the fact that there was "nothing" north of me. Then a friend compared our Manitoban geographical situation with that of someone living in New York City or LA and from that moment on I realized to what extent the wildness I grew up with had shaped my psyche.

Now, living in Montreal I am still only 50 miles from seemingly limitless boreal forest and tundra that stretches to the Arctic seas. The presence of this wilderness so close at hand is a reassuring balm upon my urban soul's spirit.

I guess all I am saying is...aside from the recreational value of wilderness it is important to recognize and treasure the spiritual value.

 

[psmart]

Wilderness to me is a large (qualitative descriptor = bad!) area within which there is to be found no more than the results of the chaotic processes of natural forces, free of man-made input. This includes forces that are millions of years old (geological) and those that are ongoing at this time.

I like that definition. In fact, it sounds a lot like my favorite passage from the 1964 Wilderenss Act:

A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value.

 

[dreamstream]

From a first aid point of view "wilderness" is two hours or more from difinative medical care. As a trained wilderness first aider/responder there are some levels of care you are only permitted to give if the situation is such that the medical care the patient requires is more than 2 hours away.

 

[funkyfreddy]

"Something will have gone out of us as a people if we ever let the remaining wilderness be destroyed." Walter Stegner

I guess all I am saying is...aside from the recreational value of wilderness it is important to recognize and treasure the spiritual value.

I agree with both statements..... there is something lacking in those that can not or do not appreciate the natural world and our planets beauty.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

From a first aid point of view "wilderness" is two hours or more from difinative medical care. As a trained wilderness first aider/responder there are some levels of care you are only permitted to give if the situation is such that the medical care the patient requires is more than 2 hours away.

This is my favorite definition so far. Simple, clear and with a well-defined purpose.

Now, how do you define 2 hours away? Must change with the conditions.

Tim