How Windy is too Windy - Mt Washington

[NH Tramper]

When I did Flags on the 48 on Mt. Adams the winds were around 45MPH with gusts in the 70s. These winds were turning some people away, and it stands to reason. Many people, myself included, were coming close to be knocked down. It was more dangerous up there. I don't think I'd want to hike above tree line in winds stronger than those that day.

 

[jrbren]

I ask if the hike will be enjoyable, not just if can be done without threat of death. If it were me and I was set on Washington I would climb something out of Pinkham notch as suggested. Although my favorite route is up Lion Head & down Boot Spur. I have always been afraid of the Tuckerman Ravine trail due to stories of madding crowds on that trail. Maybe not so bad mid week in September ? If the conditions were dry Huntington Ravine trail ascent is perhaps my favorite hike in the east (with Boot Spur Descent). Exception would be if I was training for some big mountain elsewhere in the world and wanted to get experienced with some crappy weather I might encounter there.

To answer the question,what wind speed is too much typically for me ? 30-40 I would guess makes it too miserable. I have been out in higher. One day on Mt Adams I was knocked over a few times. The Mt Washington observatory was reporting 80 mph top wind gusts that day. Where I was being knocked over was around the lip/top/rim of the King Ravine on the airline trail. This is usually the most windy spot I encounter on my climbs out of Appalachia (done more then I can count through the years).

 

[hikerbrian]

Here's one more opinion/experience to add to the list. A few winters ago my group came across the northern presis, finished on Washington and came down the Lion Head winter route. On the day we came up from Sphinx Col and over Washington, winds were forecasted to be 50-75 mph with higher gusts (we had a weather radio with us so that we could get up to date forecasts during the backpack). The next day, when we were off of the mountain, I checked the Mt. Washington observatory weather archive to see exactly what the temps and winds were while we were up there. At the hour that we summitted Washington, the temp was 0 F, and the winds were sustained at 70 mph with a peak gust of 89 mph. Keep in mind, that data is recorded on the equipment 50 ft or so above the summit of Washington - I believe conditions on the ground, even right at the summit, were less severe, but that's the only reliable data I've got. Anyway, I found those conditions to be pretty tiring, and we got blown off balance quite a bit. But it was manageable, even for several hours above treeline with a full multi-day mountaineering pack. Under those conditions I did not feel that I might get blown off of the mountain at any second. I did not have to crawl for any portion. I had to brace myself occassionally after getting blown off balance by the gusts, but I was consistently able to make forward progress (importantly - the wind was out of the W-NW, which means it was either a cross-wind, or slightly at our backs). It did not feel as bad as how the above posted video looks. Hope that is helpful.

 

[BethW]

Great reading and viewing of pics and videos. Thanks to all for your input.

FWIW, I bailed on the wind yesterday and risked rain and sleet today instead. I did the hike up Ammonoosuc and down Jewell. What a thrill the Ammonoosuc Ravine Trail is! And to see the Mt Wash towers come into view. Rain started when I was just about done, 6 hours into the hike and 1 hour from the car. Knees survived because the Jewell trail is probably as good as it gets downhill and I resigned myself to using poles.

My pics and blog should anyone be interested:
http://bethsrecipes.wordpress.com/

beth

PS edit - rather than hike yesterday I went to the weather discovery center in n. conway, as suggested at the end of the mt wash audio weather report. there I bought an anemometer and will use this to get a better feel for wind. today's peak wind that I measured was 18 mph. wind chill 21 degrees.

 

[Stash]

A bit after he fact but a few cents from one of lighter stature (5-11, 155lb). Much of the cone and upper Jewel is a bit of a rock hop. I've often find that I can get a nice rhythm going on these surfaces and move along quite well. Toss in in a strong or or, even more so, gusty wind and I get thrown off on the landing slowing me way down. When solo consideration should be given to the potential for a fall between those wonderful boulders and how to recover.

 

[Clown]

We went up the ammo in august with winds of 40-50 and gusts in the 60s or so they claimed at the summit and the gusts were enough make me feel like my contacts were going to be blown out of my eyes but no real trouble standing. At pinkham a few years back they were claiming gusts of 75+ at the summit which were definitely intense and made it quite difficult for hiking but that day we came up tucks and didn't feel the effects of the winds until we crested the summit.

 

[hikerbrian]

One more data point from this past weekend: we came up and over Washington from Sphinx col this past Sunday and had planned to finish our traverse via Crawford path. Looking back at the Observatory records, when we came over Washington, wind speed was 50, temp -5. It was uncomfortable but manageable. We continued over Washington, but in the time it took us to get down Washington to Lakes, the wind had picked up to 80 (with higher gusts) and temp had dropped to -10. We started up Monroe in these conditions but turned around midway up and made our way back to the lee of Lakes and ultimately bailed down Ammo Ravine trail. At that wind speed, feeling the full brunt directly perpendicular to our route, we could not make forward progress.

 

[Mike P.]

How windy is too windy? depends on where you are going & the time of year, how warm it is. We did Madison in the winter years ago & found it hard but we all made it. We thought it was in 50+ but one member of our group had an hand anemometer & the top reading he got was 43.

I like picking summits like Pierce, Liberty & Garfield when it's blowing pretty good. (but less than 100, or 90but 50 - 60 okay ) They are open but have cover close at hand. They offer the man, this is brutal experience but without having miles to walk to find shelter.

While I wouldn't call myself a weather wimp, if I have to crawl up to a summit to bag a peak, I'm not having fun anymore.

 

[weatherman]

Yes, crawling is not fun. Only time I had to crawl to a summit, I got hypothermic later in the day.
Two things though:
1. Your mileage (per hour) may vary. A few years back I was with Poison Ivy and Spencer on Katahdin's Tableland, with winds who knows, I'm guessing 45 sustained gusting to 60. The trail had a lot of talus, of course. Poison Ivy moved with a lot of difficulty and skipped going to Howe Peaks, I moved steadily but very slowly and with a lot of effort, and Spencer shoved his way through and moved relatively easily.
2. Gusts are a lot trickier than sustained wind. I'd rather hike into 50 mph sustained than 35 with 60 gusts.

 

[Sunshine Chris]

The photo and video are taken on the deck of the Sherman Adams Building on the summit of Mount Washington. The guy on the left is average size and did not fall backwards. The guy in the middle is 6'4 220lbs and could make little headway. The girl on the right got blown down and had to crawl back to the lee of the building. The wind was 55 with a gust to 65mph. They had no packs which basically act as sails...

I am 5'11 210lbs. This is me in sustained 80mph with a gust to 86. As the wind increases the pressure on your body surface grows incrementally. I'm not a scientist and can't explain this phenomenon, but I'm sure there are some here who can... 8 )

Video HERE:

KDT

Great video- I posted to my facebook wall page.

 

[Sunshine Chris]

Some great discussion here that I find informative. Thanks everyone!

 

[DougPaul]

As the wind increases the pressure on your body surface grows incrementally. I'm not a scientist and can't explain this phenomenon, but I'm sure there are some here who can... 8 )

Summary:
aerodynamic forces are proportional to the square of the airspeed.

Details:
q=1/2 * rho * v*v
where:
q=dynamic pressure (force/area)
rho = density of air (weight/volume)
v = velocity of air (distance/time)
(See, for instance, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_pressure)

The total force is then:
f=S*q
where S is the effective flat-plate area of a surface.
Or if you prefer:
drag = Cd * S * q (where Cd is the coefficient of drag)
lift = Cl * S * q (where Cl is the coefficient of lift)
(Cd and Cl are generally less than 2.)

The density of air decreases with increasing altitude, temperature, and humidity so there is no single correct value for it. The effective flat-plate area of a body depends on its size, shape, and orientation to the wind. A human standing on the ground is in the boundary layer (transition zone between the ground and free air flow) so the wind speed varies across its body.

Putting in some reasonable numbers gives a dynamic pressure of 1 lb/sq_ft at a wind speed of ~20 mph. If one assumes that a human has an effective flat-plate area of ~5 sq-ft this gives the following:
20 mph ......... 5 lbs
40 mph ......... 20 lbs
60 mph ......... 45 lbs
80 mph ......... 80 lbs
100 mph ......... 125 lbs
120 mph ......... 180 lbs
231 mph ......... 670 lbs
I have read reports of people being lifted off the ground in winds ~80 mph.

For comparison, some light single-engine aircraft take off around 60 mph and some heavy multi-engine aircraft take off around 150 mph.

Doug

 

[John H Swanson]

When I climbed Washington by Lions head in winter, the actual reported conditions were -5F with sustained winds of 45mph with gusts to 55mph. The temp resulted in no exposed skin surfaces allowed (with the wind) White frost nip was common that day when there were gaps in the skin coverage. The winds requred us us to use poles for stability and it was a challenge to keep your balance, but overall it was doable and not a problem. Now I would think that worse conditions would get more risky.

On another day, on Adams, the winds were up near the same level and it was interesting to see that I was okay and another hiker of the same height, but with less weight (balast?) was fighting to stay on the ground.