Ice Farming???

[Chugach001]

Hey folks, looking for some help. I posted on NEice and a few others looking for advice and came up empty handed, any of you climbers out there have experience growing ice?

I have a 100' dead vertical quarry wall with a natural spring nearby, and 100' of tubing already in place. My issue seems to be regulating my water flow to match the temps - or something. I'm doing the trial and error thing but would love to find someone who could offer some helpful advice. ???

Thanks!

 

[Kevin Rooney]

What is it exactly you're trying to do?

 

[Chugach001]

Sorry; grow multiple grade 5 ice climbs 10 minutes from my house.

 

[ColdRiverRun]

I used to work in an arena where we made the hockey ice and I presume all the same priciples would apply. Basically lay down a light layer, let it freeze, repeat until thick enough they you can lay it a little heavier, basically in an amount that would allow the new water to freeze quickly without melting the previous ice layer much. Are you just running a hose and letting it run in a single seep line? I would suggest getting a fan head or adjustable head that will allow a spray. A heavy single line will tend to cut and melt the previous layer. We were set up on a schedule and then checked the ice until it was refrozen. Think of it more as a layering and building practice. You'll notice that the ice freezes when thinned out like a splash on rocks much faster.

 

[TCD]

You could also try not using hose, and instead using logs or other "diverters" to "encourage" the water to run across the surface where you want it to. I think the running across the surface may modulate the water flow naturally, and result in a better delivery of water to the planned climbs.

 

[ColdRiverRun]

Along the lines of what I wrote already don't run the water in one continous flow, divert it and allow the entire surface to freeze then restart. If you just let it run your more likely to just get freeze at the base of the cliff with splash than a continous ice wall.

 

[Chugach001]

Cold River, you are on to something and I appreciate the somewhat similar experience.

My next step in the trial/error cycle is to plug the end and drill holes every foot over the last 20'. This will also get me a wider sheet and more climbing options. I'm not sure how I can lay layers like you and TCD said but I suspect that's the best option. Thanks Guys.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

How do they do it at Ouray? I'm not an ice climber, but I seem to remember they spray the water? Maybe I dreamed that, but I think I read it somewhere.

 

[Aviarome]

Chugach,
I know the owner of Rock and River in the Adirondacks does this for his "ice park." You can probably talk to him to see how he does it, but the contraption that I saw was at the end of his hose, he had tubing/PVC pipes that was connected with several, evenly spaced shower heads. This might be along the lines of just drilling holes like you suggested, but perhaps this is how he regulates water flow as well? Might be worth giving him a call.

 

[nartreb]

If you set up two separate lines of tubing, or one flexible tube you can move far enough, the "off" interval for one icefall can be the "on" interval for the other. If you do turn off the flow, do it at the uphill end of the pipe, so your pipes don't freeze (you may need an air opening just below the cutoff valve, or water will remain in the pipe).

 

[Forester Jake]

Tip, you may want to bury your feed line (black plastic water pipe?) with some hay to prevent a major freeze up during super cold spells- it will put your line out of commission all winter. Otherwise, if the water source / spring runs reliably all winter, just let it run diverted off to the side of your ice wall- in theory it should never freeze up on you (your feed line that is).
This is what the backcountry rescue organization has done in the past at one of our gorge for rescue practice & training- they grew some gnarly ice with a 3/4" spring fed, hay buried water line and home made spray diverters!!

Good luck, sounds cool!

 

[Tom Rankin]

A business in the Catskills (on Rt. 28 near Arkville) used to have a fine spray aimed straight up around a catch basin. The wind would make a huge ice sculpture at least 10 feet tall.

 

[TCD]

One other trick to help define and form the ice lines is to hang an old rope where you want the line to form. Rope will act like a wick, and the ice will form around it.

 

[Chugach001]

Thanks for all the help thus far. Spraying seems to be the answer but I don't see how to get that going without power.

Here's the ultimate in farmed ice....
http://www.alaskaalpineclub.org/IceTower/IceTowers.html

Mine should be easier because gravity is on my side. Downfall is I don't have Fairbanks temperatures to work with.

Here's another post I found online which is pretty clever and in the same direction as TCD's wick suggestion.

"Last year I created an ice farm by hanging some old fencing off a granite overhang and twisting it into a tube. It froze into a killer ice pencil about five feet thick!"

I thought about that but don't have 100' of fence and it seems damn close to littering. I do have several hundred feet of rope which I'll hang once I get my water system fixed.

It's an experiment so keep the ideas coming. THANKS!

 

[nartreb]

It might help if you post photos. Is the water plunging over the lip and into the air? Is it sticking to the rock but just not freezing? Do you have ice formation at the top that doesn't reach the bottom?

The main thing is to keep the flow of water to a minimum, and be patient.

PS Power? You've got gravity!

 

[Chugach001]

Rule #1, secure pipe. Ours broke free and was hanging about 30' down the cliff rotting out the great natural line. Our farmed wall had about 8"s thick ice on the bottom half, with big chunks scattered about the ground. This sure hints that we had grown a deadass vertical 100' face.

I fixed it and put the pipe up high in the trees with some scratched out runnels to direct water. The Arete is now getting plentiful water, the natural line is getting some support and the big dry (recently iced) wall is getting some.

No doubt in my mind that the solution is stretching the pipe out, extending it into the dihedral (that line would be a fun WI4), capping the pipe and drilling soaker holes along the final 40' of hose.


I have another project, a 70' overhanging dihedral with great ice but too much water. I'm going up there with a pick and shovel to divert some of the water.

What a silly obsession this is becoming.

 

[DougPaul]

Do you mean like this?

I did the rotation with jpegtran http://jpegclub.org/, http://www.ijg.org/, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libjpeg. While I did the rotation on Linux, the Wikipedia article has links to versions for other OSes.

(Copy the rotated file to your server and link it from there. The url is http://www.vftt.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3213&d=1294806294.)

Doug

Note: The attached image is shown above.

 

[Chugach001]

Yes, thanks a bunch Doug!

 

[Scotzman]

Can we get some pics of the project as it develops?

 

[Chugach001]

yes, I'll certainly post some more if I can get something substantial growing.