If Washington was another 1000' would it be glaciated?

[SpencerVT]

We received 3-4 inches of snow near where I live in Southern Vermont on Mother's Day Weekend.
It got me thinking: If Mount Washington was 1000' taller, would it be permanently glaciated or permanent ice/snow in some capacity? Sometimes when I drive past Washington on Route 302 late in the Spring and see it all encased in snow it is hard to imagine it ever not being winter up there (although obviously summer conditions eventually arrive).
I know year-round ice/snow is more than just a function of elevation, but it has always seemed to me that Mount Washington is really close to having permanent year-round glacier/snow/ice.

 

[Mike P.]

I'd have to guess that would depend if the ravines were a 1000 feet higher. Most of the snow that falls on the top is blown off into a ravine or the snowfield that occurs on the eastern slope of Washington. (had an avalanche a few, several, years ago) I usually avoid Tuckerman Ravine in order to avoid the crowd, however, one year there was some left over snow around the 24th of August.

 

[jfb]

If you go due west a couple of thousand miles, you'll eventually bump into the Tetons. The Tetons run North-South like the Presidential Range. There are some small glaciers there, but they start at around 10,000 ft. elevation.

 

[Mike P.]

The weather is different though out in WY than where Mt. Washington is located. Crawford Notch gets almost double the average winter precipitation as does Jackson Hole

 

[TCD]

I have often thought that if something were to happen to extend Lake Ontario to the east, all the way over to the Saranac lake area, that the lake effect snow in the ADK high peaks would be prodigious, and we would have glaciers again pretty soon, maybe in 100 years.

 

[jfb]

The weather is different though out in WY than where Mt. Washington is located. Crawford Notch gets almost double the average winter precipitation as does Jackson Hole

https://www.jacksonhole.com/weather-snow-report.html

 

[peakbagger]

There have been discussions about the Tuckerman Glacier over the years, sadly with the current climate future, I don't see any forming anytime soon unless the current unusual long stretch between glacial periods decides to end. Thirty years ago there were legitimate scientific institutions that advocated the Global Cooling was about to arrive due to this long stretch. The Institute of Quaternary Studies was one in this region.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

2020 last-reported snowfall was: 461" (JH) vs 157" (BW) - Champagne Powder vs East Coast Mixed Precip?

Tim

 

[jfb]

I have often thought that if something were to happen to extend Lake Ontario to the east, all the way over to the Saranac lake area, that the lake effect snow in the ADK high peaks would be prodigious, and we would have glaciers again pretty soon, maybe in 100 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_Lake_Iroquois

 

[Quietman]

There is ice in the caves in King Ravine that is there year round. Underground glacier?

 

[blacknblue]

Treeline in the CO Rockies is around 11,500 feet versus 4,500 in the Northeast (roughly). Colorado has "permanent snowfields", obviously not that much higher than treeline. It seems like another 1000 feet would make a permanent snowfield a possibility, or at least snow that occasionally makes it year-round. Interesting question.

 

[sierra]

I am no expert, so take this with a grain of salt. I would think a big factor in having the conditions for a permanent glacier, would be the nighttime temps. Out west even in the summer, the temps at night plummet, thus relocking the snow and ice. Here in the east, it rarely dips below freezing in the summer and the melt does not stop until, the snow and ice is gone. Another 1000ft in my opinion, wouldn't be enough, to negate that.

 

[Sanbu]

If memory serves, this topic was broached in AMC's Appalachia magazine some decades ago. I don't have the reference. What I recall is an elevation of 9,000 feet. Not sure if that was supposed to be the summit elevation, or Tuckerman bowl elevation, for permanent glacier to form.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I checked with a contact who is a former MW OBS Meteorologist...

Fog is the biggest factor. The fog doesn’t let the snowpack radiate and stay cold. So the snowpack gets ripped through in the summer. A tuckerman ravine type wind deposit at 7000 feet...maybe, but still likely wouldn’t survive the fog.

Tim

 

[Mike P.]

https://www.jacksonhole.com/weather-snow-report.html

I looked at one of the weather services average for Jackson Hole for my comparison. The Jackson Hole snow vortex likely pales to the snow numbers that Jay Peak allegedly gets. (IDK, I did not look up for Jay but listening to adds and the ski area promo's they seem to embellish a bit)

The cams on the ski area show some snow on the slopes, more than what is currently at Badger Pass in Yosemite and much less than what is visible at the Mammoth Summit Cam of the summit and the surrounding peaks in the Sierra. It's currently snowing at Bachelor.

 

[jfb]

I looked at one of the weather services average for Jackson Hole for my comparison.

Don't forget that Jackson Hole is the large valley to the east of the Teton Range. It's possible that snowfall on the mountains is much greater than in the valley.

 

[skiguy]

I looked at one of the weather services average for Jackson Hole for my comparison. The Jackson Hole snow vortex likely pales to the snow numbers that Jay Peak allegedly gets.

https://unofficialnetworks.com/2018/08/15/top-10-north-america-ski-resorts-highest-avrage-snowfall/ Let’s just say Jay Peak is the only Eastern Resort that makes the top 35 at #28. Jackson Hole comes in at #16 with 73 more inches than Jay. Both of which are a pale comparison to #1 Mt.Baker at 701 inches.

 

[skiguy]

Don't forget that Jackson Hole is the large valley to the east of the Teton Range. It's possible that snowfall on the mountains is much greater than in the valley.

I would concur with that. I have been to Jackson Hole multiple times. The difference between downtown and the top of the ski area as far as precipitation goes is a lot. Even at the ski area itself the difference from base to mid mountain and the upper mountain can be big. Close to 4000 feet of gain. There is almost 6000 feet of elevation from downtown to the summit of the ski area. Then another 4000 feet to the top of the Grand. To put it in comparison the difference in elevation from downtown Jackson Hole to the top of the ski area is just shy of the height of Mt. Washington and only 12 miles apart. The distance from downtown North Conway to AMC Pinkham Notch is twice the distance at 24 miles with only an elevation gain of approximately 1500 feet. Although the difference from North Conway to the summit of the Rockpile is more impressive at approximately 5500 feet. Right now the environmental conditions from the Valley to the Summit is very evident. One can see all the gullies of Hunt’s chocked full of Snow and the East snowfields fully covered as I am about to do my first mow of the grass this evening here in the valley.

 

[SpencerVT]

I checked with a contact who is a former MW OBS Meteorologist...

Tim

Interesting about the Fog being a prime reason why a year-round snowpack couldn't stay. I wonder though if a higher elevation would somehow mean less fog.
I nonetheless think that if every elevation was raised by 1,000' (The summit of Mount Washington, the base of all the ravines, etc) that year round snowpack would be possible.
I climbed Howe Mountain near Shelburne-Moriah this weekend and there is still significant snow depth above 2500'.

 

[Mike P.]

The wind wouldn't be much stronger most days as there is really nothing blocking it now from most of the prevailing directions. If it came over Jefferson and Adams most of the time, that would be an issue. At times the wind in the cols seems worst as it's being funneled between the peaks, especially Edmands Col. There is no weather equipment there though.