Insulated Water Bottle vs Water Bottle Cover/Parka

[DayTrip]

I've been getting by this winter using my summer insulated sleeves on my Nalgene water bottles. As long as I put hot water in to start and store upside down in my pack I haven't had the water freeze on me but I have had the threads freeze shut once or twice. But another bigger problem I am finding is that even though the water is not frozen it is so cold that it actually hurts to drink (i.e ice cream head ache and stomach nausea) and cools me down fast so I still find myself not drinking enough water.

I've seen people carry bottle insulated covers and I recently bought an insulated Hydroflask for soups. The price for a cover versus an actual insulated water bottle is virtually the same so I'm wondering why or when I'd want one over the other. The parka does have a loop so I could carry on hip belt so I guess that is a difference. Anyone care to weigh in on that?

 

[Tom Rankin]

Boil the water and put it in a Nalgene with a cover. That should keep it drinkable for a LONG time. Otherwise get a metal thermos.

 

[mirabela]

Hot water, and stuff the bottle in an old wool sock. If possible, nest among your stuffed puffy in your pack. That'll take you all day.

 

[summitseeker]

Boil the water and put it in a Nalgene with a cover. That should keep it drinkable for a LONG time. Otherwise get a metal thermos.

Hi Tom,

I met a scientist at a Christmas Party this winter and posed the classic "hot water vs. cold freezing faster" question. I don't appreciate people fact checking me so please don't take this the wrong way, BUT I would venture to say you might find this interesting.

The "Mpemba effect" is a controversial theory about water freezing faster due to temp, blah, blah, blah. Bottom line: it is still not exactly proven, so therefore it remains a theory.

Here are the non-debatable facts about boiling water and freezing.

1: All liquids will freeze fastest and most readily in their densest state.
2: When water boils it releases dissolved gas.
3. Releasing dissolved gas makes water more dense.
4. Dissolved gas (air if you will) is the best insulator, so therefore less dissolved gas can lead to water freezing faster.

So, after all that my suggestion to others is this. Raise your water to the highest temperature possible before boiling occurs. I hope people find this information useful and not nit-picky.

Be well,

Z

 

[bikehikeskifish]

This very cold winter has been an excellent test for the boiling versus non-boiling water bottle. The boiled water bottle clearly outlasts the non-boiled water bottle.

Tim

 

[nartreb]

Boiling water, by definition, isn't just releasing dissolved gas, it's releasing water vapor that was once liquid water. It's true that warmer water can hold less dissolved gas, but most of that action happens well below boiling temperature. Gas is a good insulator (if you can minimize convection), but dissolved gas isn't.

---

Personally, I use a couple of Thermoses. Fill with boiling water in the morning, and they'll still be piping hot in the evening. Add snow to the cup to adjust temperature for drinking.

Note that once your water is boiling, there's no point trying to heat it further . Any liquid water that passes 100 degrees C converts to steam and escapes (unless you've got a heck of a pressure chamber); as long as you've got liquid water, the liquid is no hotter than 100C.

 

[Tom Rankin]

You could also stuff a hand warmer in the bottle holder, assuming the holder is not air tight. If it is, affix a toe warmer.

 

[DayTrip]

So I guess what I'm hearing is using a thermos or an insulated cover is a personal preference. I get the boiling water, carry hot water thing. I was more specifically wondering whether I want to spend $30 on a Nalgene bottle cover for existing bottles or just spend $30 on an insulated bottle. Not hearing anything here suggesting one is more advantageous for the same amount of money (other than Tom's hand warmer suggestion, which makes sense). I suppose I could also use the covers as emergency gloves in some bizarre survival situation where I lost my gloves. It would hurt like hell forcing an insulated thermos on my hands.

 

[hikerbrian]

As a person with an extensive background in chemistry, I can tell you, with certainty, that the Mpemba effect (i.e. hot water freezing before cold water) is observed in an extreme minority of cases, can rarely be reproduced, and has no relevance to winter hiking.

The hotter the water you start with, the hotter it will be at the end of the day. Whether you boil, don't boil, heat to just below boiling, whatever, doesn't matter to any significant degree. Fill your bottles with the hottest water you can, put them in an insulating cozy, and go about your business.

I keep one insulated bottle attached to my hip belt to drink, while the other stays in my pack until the first is empty. The water on my hip belt gets cold much quicker than the bottle in my pack (shoved in the middle somewhere), but if I have to take my pack off every time I want a drink, I won't drink much, so it's worth it to keep one insulated bottle on my hip belt.

Drinking COLD COLD water during a winter hike is a sad affair and is asking for trouble, so you are are right, DayTrip, so seek another way.

 

[erugs]

I'd suggest watching for sales and get both. Don't settle for less than the best rated, though.

My problem, I dislike the banging of carrying my bottle outside my pack I might be okay with an insulated cover that strapped it top and bottom to my pack somehow, What I usually do has have a smaller bottle outside on a holster, and a tanker of boiled water inside my pack, and a small thermos of something tasty. For those thermoses that come without a cup, I have purchased some Aladin cups that collapse and have a screw on cover and are light.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ala...ZMaLl0QGS6YHgDQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1477&bih=645

I have the purple ones. The color makes the drink even tastier!

 

[Tom Rankin]

The water on my hip belt gets cold much quicker than the bottle in my pack (shoved in the middle somewhere), but if I have to take my pack off every time I want a drink, I won't drink much, so it's worth it to keep one insulated bottle on my hip belt.

I also do this. I will defer to your expertise, but I think the external bottle gets colder faster because it is usually emptier, and thus cools faster and faster. I don't think there is very much residual warmth in my pack from my body, up to 7 layers away from the internal bottle.

 

[DayTrip]

but I think the external bottle gets colder faster because it is usually emptier, and thus cools faster and faster.

That has been my issue too. When I crack a fresh bottle it is usually ice free and opens easily. But after I've chugged half of it down ice forms inside and sometimes the threads freeze. I wondered if carrying the 500ml Nalgene's would be better than the 1000ml so when I opened them I basically finished them but then again maybe they'd just freeze faster. Thinking I may get one 500ml bottle and carry on me and fill from the larger insulated bottles when I do actually stop. I hate having all that crap hanging from my belt and bouncing all over the place. Summer is so much simpler....

 

[hikerbrian]

The water bottle on my hip belt gets cold faster because there is less insulation between the hot water and the cold air, so energy is transferred away from the hot water to the cold environment relatively quickly. The bottle in my pack has much more insulation between it and the cold environment, therefore energy transfer (i.e. heat loss) is relatively slow.

There may be a slight effect from a changing surface area to volume ratio as water is drunk, but I suspect that is minor relative to the insulation issue. A smaller hip water bottle might help in that you drink it faster, so it has less time with relatively little insulation to get cold. But the downside is you have to refill it more ofter from whatever resevoir you have in your pack.

Daytrip, I think you'll find that if you start with boiling water (or close to it) and put your Nalgene in a well-insulated carrier, even on your hip it'll stay liquid and even warm for a long time except in the coldest of conditions. If it's THAT cold (meaning high of say 15 below during the day), you'll want to keep your water in a Thermos, but them is some serious conditions. The Nalgene you keep in your pack in an insulated carrier will remain hot most of a day, even when it's very cold.

 

[jfb]

So I guess what I'm hearing is using a thermos or an insulated cover is a personal preference. I get the boiling water, carry hot water thing. I was more specifically wondering whether I want to spend $30 on a Nalgene bottle cover for existing bottles or just spend $30 on an insulated bottle.

I bought my Nalgene bottle parkas many years before the Hydroflask was invented. For me, it doesn't make much sense to go out and buy the Hydroflask. But if I were you, I'd get one of each and let us know which works best.

 

[John H Swanson]

Start with warm or near boiling water. Keep the outside bottle small (500ml) so you can drink it all before the large delta t can suck the calories out of the bottle. In a parka of course. Keep small extra bottles in your pack wrapped in emergency gear and within 5" of your back. No parkas for the extra bottles. This is the most effective weight conscience solution. Large bottles out of the pack take too long to consume so even starting with boiling water will result in slush by 4pm. Partially consumed bottles cool more quickly due to accelerated heat loss from sloshing convection

Edit:
More Detail:
The 1/2 liter (or 20 oz) bottles allow more flexibility as they allow you to bring 1,2,or 3, or 4 depending on the requirements vs 1L to 2L

I use a 500ml bottle to fit my 500ml parka but would prefer a 20oz version if I could find one. Might make one someday.

The smaller bottle is more kind on the hip.

I uses 20oz gatorade bottles (for the ones in my pack) and they are so much lighter than Lexan or PE Nalgenes on a per liter basis. You need to put 1" of RT water into the bottle before filling with hot water so you dont deform the bottom.

I prefer a narrow neck bottle to allow me to drink while walking without spilling it all over myself vs stopping to drink though I do the latter on occasion. Narrow neck freeze up is no concern if consumed before freezing.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

My heated-to-boiling Nalgene was far from frozen after 8 hours on Owl's Head today in -5 degree average temps. My tap-filled bottle got 2/3 drunk before any ice formed in it at all. I have EMS bottle cozies and I carry them both external to the pack.

Tim

 

[TJsName]

That has been my issue too. When I crack a fresh bottle it is usually ice free and opens easily. But after I've chugged half of it down ice forms inside and sometimes the threads freeze. I wondered if carrying the 500ml Nalgene's would be better than the 1000ml so when I opened them I basically finished them but then again maybe they'd just freeze faster. Thinking I may get one 500ml bottle and carry on me and fill from the larger insulated bottles when I do actually stop. I hate having all that crap hanging from my belt and bouncing all over the place. Summer is so much simpler....

Carry it upside down. It'll make it so ice forms on the bottom of the bottle, but you can still open/drink freely.

 

[Maineman]

I use a single 3+ liter poland spring bottle (the cylindrical ones with the 1 1/4" mouth) which is very lightweight and not prone to freeze - I keep it on it's side and the sloshing seems to prevent freeze-ups

 

[DayTrip]

Carry it upside down. It'll make it so ice forms on the bottom of the bottle, but you can still open/drink freely.

I do carry them upside down. If I forget to wipe the threads on them before I close a bottle though and it is fairly cold the threads fuse solid regardless of water level.

I decided to go with two covers for my existing 1L Nalgene's and get an 18oz Hydroflask to carry on belt/beltpouch. I'll drink from the 18oz bottle while walking and when I stop to add layers I'll drink from the Nalgenes and refill the Hydroflask. I really dislike stopping and taking all my stuff off in winter (really all the time but it's far less "traumatic" in summer with a day pack).

Figure I usually make at least one layer adjustment on the way up and one on the way back. That should provide me with adequate hydration opportunities

 

[TJsName]

I do carry them upside down. If I forget to wipe the threads on them before I close a bottle though and it is fairly cold the threads fuse solid regardless of water level.

I decided to go with two covers for my existing 1L Nalgene's and get an 18oz Hydroflask to carry on belt/beltpouch. I'll drink from the 18oz bottle while walking and when I stop to add layers I'll drink from the Nalgenes and refill the Hydroflask. I really dislike stopping and taking all my stuff off in winter (really all the time but it's far less "traumatic" in summer with a day pack).

Figure I usually make at least one layer adjustment on the way up and one on the way back. That should provide me with adequate hydration opportunities

Ahh, good man. I stop a bunch to catch a breather/cool off, so grabbing my 1L Poland Spring bottle out from my down jacket isn't a bit deal. I guess if it's so cold I have to wear all my layers, then my water had to get tucked into my coat.