Interesting Stream 'Crossing'

[Tom Rankin]

Usually when we say 'stream crossing' we mean rock hopping across a stream.

I was looking at a topo map for the area of North Brother, and I saw 2 streams cross each other!

https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=45.94423,-69.01906&z=16&b=mbt

You can see that it's flattish there but it does not show a pond or marsh.

I saw this effect on a much smaller scale when runoff coming down a side hilling trail met a small stream coming straight down the slope. After merging briefly, the water kept flowing down the trail AND straight down the mountain.

I know 2 Ocean Creek must do something like this. Are there a lot of these, and I just never noticed, or is this somewhat rare?

 

[nartreb]

Usually when we say 'stream crossing' we mean rock hopping across a stream.

I was looking at a topo map for the area of North Brother, and I saw 2 streams cross each other!

https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=45.94423,-69.01906&z=16&b=mbt

You can see that it's flattish there but it does not show a pond or marsh.

I saw this effect on a much smaller scale when runoff coming down a side hilling trail met a small stream coming straight down the slope. After merging briefly, the water kept flowing down the trail AND straight down the mountain.

I know 2 Ocean Creek must do something like this. Are there a lot of these, and I just never noticed, or is this somewhat rare?

"Braiding", where streams continually cross and recross, happens all the time. You can see some incipient examples just downslope on your map, and tons of it on multiple scales in any flattish river system.

Yours is a rarer example of a true X, where the upstream branches have separate origins and the downstream branches don't recombine before hitting a third body of water.

 

[dug]

"Braiding", where streams continually cross and recross, happens all the time. You can see some incipient examples just downslope on your map, and tons of it on multiple scales in any flattish river system.

Yours is a rarer example of a true X, where the upstream branches have separate origins and the downstream branches don't recombine before hitting a third body of water.

That's what struck me as well. When braiding, they seem to cross, separate, and cross again often enough. These look like completely divergent paths after meeting. It does look a bit odd. Would be interesting to see a die test or a ping-pong ball test and see how well they mesh at the X.

 

[Tom Rankin]

They could be ephemeral at the upper reaches, but the one that is NOT named Roaring Brook definitely has water in it below the X.

 

[peakbagger]

My guess is that entire range seems to be designed to slide. The upper stream is actually running down the old Marston Slide trail. (Worth a visit) When this slide let loose in history it dug the trench that runs parallel to the new Marston Slide and eventually ends up at Slide Dam ( a natural dam on Nesowadnehunk Stream caused by debris). When the old Marston Slide trail runs straight where the there is now a T junction appears to be an old debris field that has grown in. My guess is Roaring Brook may be a slide path from an older slide and when the Marston Slide slid, gravity forced a stream across the prior stream.

 

[jjmcgo]

Funny, you mentioned this.
I just read within the last two weeks about two rivers that intersect near Elbag, Poland.
https://izismile.com/2012/04/11/two_rivers_cross_each_other_without_mixing_4_pics.html

 

[Tom Rankin]

Here is an example of a stream splitting, you might be surprised at the location...

https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=44.28019,-73.99571&z=17&b=mbt

 

[NHClimber]

This is really interesting. Any in New England besides the BSP location above? Would be cool to check out, particularly if off the beaten path.

 

[TCD]

Here is an example of a stream splitting, you might be surprised at the location...

https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=44.28019,-73.99571&z=17&b=mbt

That's interesting, Tom. Have you been to the actual location? (I have not.) Seeing as it's essentially "right in the middle of town" I wonder if there might not be some man made influence on this; perhaps an old flood control structure or something. I couldn't see anything on satellite, but it does look like there's a dirt road into the location from the back of the large "bus parking lot" on Wesvalley...

 

[Tom Rankin]

No, I have not been there, but I am going to L.P. this weekend, maybe I'll have time to go over and take a look. According to the map, there is a hiking trail nearby.

 

[HH1]

Very strange stream this one, also because it must be under a tidal influence!

From the split, check upstream about 700 metres - crosses a closed 1800' contour, meaning it's flowing uphill on the bump's north flanks!

 

[Jazzbo]

The thing these sites have in common is the water courses were formed relatively recently since departure of glaciers perhaps within say last 12-15,000 years. Route of water may take couple 1000 more years to settle on final route. Or those pesky glaciers may decide to come back and obliterate everything and start all over again. Interesting feature about Mirror Lake appears to be kettle lake has no outlet.

Speaking of glaciers I was just listening last night to some geologists on You Tube discoursing on catastrophic floods happened when glaciers receded in Pacific Northwest sudden releases of glacial Lakes Columbia and Missoula responsible for many of the unusual and monumental terrain features you see there such as Grand Cooley and Moses Cooley etc. I expect our mountains in Northeast also have similar stories to tell.

 

[JoshandBaron]

Speaking of glaciers I was just listening last night to some geologists on You Tube discoursing on catastrophic floods happened when glaciers receded in Pacific Northwest sudden releases of glacial Lakes Columbia and Missoula responsible for many of the unusual and monumental terrain features you see there such as Grand Cooley and Moses Cooley etc. I expect our mountains in Northeast also have similar stories to tell.

Lake Vermont/Champlain Sea and other smaller glacial lakes are probably the closest things we have. I think I remember reading somewhere about one draining from the Sandwich Range where Kelley Brook(?) is now.

 

[nartreb]

Very strange stream this one, also because it must be under a tidal influence!

From the split, check upstream about 700 metres - crosses a closed 1800' contour, meaning it's flowing uphill on the bump's north flanks!

That's not a bump, that's a swamp.

 

[HH1]

Regarding the 1800' bump and tide, my attempt at humour. Clearly that closed contour is an error. As mentioned this area is wetlands as indicated on the USGS topos.

If this contour was depicting a true depression hash marks perpendicular to the contour would line its interior.

And the USGS maps show that stream split too, so Lake Placid sports its very own 'delta', man-made or otherwise. Nice catch by Tom.

 

[Salty]

Speaking of glaciers I was just listening last night to some geologists on You Tube discoursing on catastrophic floods happened when glaciers receded in Pacific Northwest sudden releases of glacial Lakes Columbia and Missoula responsible for many of the unusual and monumental terrain features you see there such as Grand Cooley and Moses Cooley etc. I expect our mountains in Northeast also have similar stories to tell.

That got me thinking that I know nothing of the post-glacial situation around here, so curiosity got the better of me, and there were a number of glacial lakes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Merrimack

Subsequently found a nice article on Lake Hitchcock***, but had this description of when Lake Iroquois in NY blew it's dam:

"That deluge drained into the Atlantic Ocean and was so large that researchers believe it may have affected a sudden cooling of the earth's climate." "Jeez, just when it was warming up again..."

Hartford Courant article


*** Interestingly, Lake Hitchcock was named after Edward Hitchcock, a geologist. He was the father of Charles H. Hitchcock of the White Mountains geological fame. Charles was also the man who organized sending up a party for a winter-over on the Rock Pile in 1870-1 for the purpose of weather observation (A. F. Clough and J. H. Huntington, likewise notable White Mtn. names, were part of that party).

A bit more digging and I found the book describing this expedition online. Can't wait to read it now.

Mount Washington in Winter

 

[MikeM]

I think That is the beginnings of a process called "stream capture". Eventually silt or debris will begin to fill or block one of the stream channels and most of the water will be diverted to other stream. This will lead to more sediment and debris being deposited in the impeded channel and greater scouring in what now becomes the main channel due to increased water flow and speed. I imagine a thousand years or more from now one of these streams will win by capturing the other. I have never seen a stream crossing like that before on a topo, very cool.

 

[DougPaul]

I think That is the beginnings of a process called "stream capture". Eventually silt or debris will begin to fill or block one of the stream channels and most of the water will be diverted to other stream. This will lead to more sediment and debris being deposited in the impeded channel and greater scouring in what now becomes the main channel due to increased water flow and speed. I imagine a thousand years or more from now one of these streams will win by capturing the other. I have never seen a stream crossing like that before on a topo, very cool.

This is a possiblity--some streams exhibit "headward erosion". In other words the head of a stream can "move" uphill by erosion. If this headward erosion hits another streambed, the second stream can be "captured".

The 24K USGS topo shows additional detail: http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=44.28289,-73.99464&z=15&t=U

I followed the unnamed sidebranch streambed on the aerial photographs (http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=44.28288,-73.99464&z=17&t=S or https://www.google.com/maps/@44.2825957,-73.9946791,1411m/data=!3m1!1e3)--it's a little iffy in spots but the unnamed side branch does appear to intersect Outlet Brook.

Doug

 

[Tom Rankin]

I drove around yesterday and there are in fact 2 healthy streams that flow down under Mill Pond Road. Of course there are a lot of healthy stream up there right now. I could not find any access to the split from the road, but I'm told I might be able to access it from here.

 

[nartreb]

I happened to be in Lake Placid with some spare time, so I confirmed today that there is a well-maintained, well-marked ski/snowmobile trail from the big dirt lot on Wesvalley Rd, that leads directly to the split. The trail crosses the east branch on a little bridge, but the land in the "gore" is posted and the trail immediately fades. I could see more blazes but decided not to pursue the blazed trail. I followed the east side of the east branch along mostly faint trails, (I think I was on an older version of the snowmobile trail for part of the way, then got onto some much more recently-maintained stuff) eventually reaching the back of some properties along Wesvalley road near the NAPA store.

The east branch is a clearly smaller branch, but there was no sign of a dam or other human intervention at the branching point. The stream didn't feel like a mill race - it had meanders and sandy shallows, and I could not see any sign of artificial hardening of the banks. Or course it was still a bit flooded, so I couldn't be sure where the normal bank was.

I may go back tomorrow and find the outlet of the east branch, and follow it up toward Wesvalley Rd to look for signs of a mill.