Karhu Pavos vrs Orions

[Jay H]

There is a silly part of me wondering if I ever scoot on some XC ski closeout, that I thought I'd better be prepared beforehand rather than late.

I own the Pavos which is basically a skinnier version of the Orion.

Pavo: 73-60-67 (mm)
Orion: 85-70-80 (mm)

Now, I'm wondering that it would be nice to have a fatter ski when I'm breaking trail (which I seem to do alot because I tend to get to trailheads very early, like to go on non-popular trails in small parks and forests, and also tend to do ungroomed golf courses D) and trails alike. The Pavos would be great track/mixed use but I thought if I could cash in on as good a deal as I got on my Pavos on the Orions, it would be cool to have for early season XC skiing on ungroomed powder. Has anybody actually tried both models and tell me how much a difference the extra ~10mm of width would affect it. Looking at the other models, like the Karhu Pyxis, it doesn't seem that much different than my Pavos, no?

Jay

 

[spencer]

I've never skied on either the Pavo or the Orion, but I've looked at both of them. The Orion looks like too much ski for x-c touring. I would think they'd be pretty heavy and cumbersome for kick n glide. And I realize you said they would be for ungroomed powder, but on occasion when you want to ski in tracks, you'll have a hard time with the 85mm tip.

I know there are a lot of VFTT members on Pavos, so let's see what they have to say.


spencer

 

[David Metsky]

One of my fellow instructors at Cardigan this weekend was on Orions, and lots of folks were on Pavos, so I got to observe them in action a lot. The Orions are not really a touring ski, and probably won't be much fun in tracks due to their width. They climb pretty well, and turn pretty well, but are limited if you try for fast turns due to the fact that they don't have too much side cut.

Stil, Charles skied like a demon on them, and looked graceful doing his turns. We climbed with skins, but both the Orion and Pavos climb very well without them. Other skis to look at are the Fischer Outtabounds and Rebounds, and the Atomic Ranier. I have a pair of waxable Outtas and they were fantastic this weekend, I got lots of good turns on them and they toured well.

You don't mention what kind of boots you have. That will really determine the ability to turn, as a soft leather boot won't be able to drive bigger skis while turning off piste. I'm on Garmont Excursions (light plastic) with 3-pin removable cables and I think the combo is excellent.

-dave-

 

[Jay H]

Thanks folks.

David: I have leather Alpina 1550s (another common boot I see) on NNN-BC manual bindings on my Pavos.

I don't think I'm fishing out $200+ for these skis but since I scored the Pavos at Campmor one March for like $80, if for some reason I find the Orions for similar, I might consider it.

Doesn't cost anything to ask!

I don't own climbing skins but so far I've managed to do OK with climbs. I'm sure my technique is more suspect than the skis themselves as I'm still improving.

Jay

 

[SherpaKroto]

Dave, keep an eye out for Excursion deals for me. I take a 10.5 I'm still kicking myself that you picked them up at REI when I'm there twice a week!

Pavos: I like mine, but can't say I'm anything of a turn machine. I'm slow and fat going up, ugly going down . However, I do love the grip they have on the ups, and they handled well on our Whiteface (NY) trip last year. For me, they are the ideal BC touring ski. If I were looking for more turning ability, I'd look hard at the Pyxis (Karhu rep recommended them to me when I bought my Pavos). I'm guessing the Orion would handle much like the Pavo with a bit more float, which out here is overkill for much of the time IMHO. I'll be spending 10 days on skis over the next month, so I'll get to put my Pavos to a good test.

 

[skiguy]

Compromises

To have the correct nordic ski or not to have. That is always the question.
It depends totally on where you are,when you are and how good of a skier you are. One must assess what your goals are and choose the best gear for the situation if you are of the quiver of skiis mentality or be prepared for bigger compromises if you are of the one ski mentality. If you own Pavos already the Orion is certainly a good compliment to your quiver. The Orion is definitely a better turning ski than the Pavo especially in deeper unbroken snow where the Pavo is a better glider in the tracks.
The Pyxsis is the compromise of the Orion and the Pavo.
If you quiver skiis own a Pavo and the Orion.
If your a one ski guy..own the Pyxsis.
I own all three of these skiis and have skied them extensivelly in all types of snow and terrain. I have used Excursions and lower lace up Leathers (Merrell Legends) on all skiis. I use 412 cables on all the skiis. I find the cables to be a good addition for torsional control with the Leathers, although with the plastic Excursion a basic Three Pin would probably be fine.
If your on BC gear A moderate to heavier boot in the line would be reccomendable for any of the three skiis.
The Orion is a superior Trail Breaker than the Pavo and a better decender...and yes will still go in the track with a 85mm track,which by present day standards is actually quite narrow.
If your out for the kick and glide,flatter to rolling terrain and especially already broken out trail,the Pavo would probably be the choice as it still will make a decent turn for you for the occasional Downhill.
Remember its Nordic skiing and the Holy Grail is not out there.

 

[trailbiscuit]

I agree with skiguy: Get as many skis as possible and ski a lot!!!

 

[Jay H]

yeah, that would work out good.

I'm thinking the Pyxis would be way too similar to my Pavos and the Orions would make more sense...

Pavo: 73-60-67
Pyxis: 74-62-68

I don't know about the flex, camble stuff though.

But anyway, I probably wont find the Orions locally on sale like I did the Pavos. When I went to campmor on saturday, they had some Ursas for $117 or so. they are 1/2 metal edge and skinnier skis than the Pavos and they also had the Jak which is a telemark ski and they had the touring ski Rendesvouz.

Jay

 

[AMF]

Thanks folks.
David: I have leather Alpina 1550s (another common boot I see) on NNN-BC manual bindings on my Pavos.
Jay

1550's do not make great turning boots, nor are the nnn-bc bindings the best for turning in. Great for snowplows. I switched from 3-pin to nnn MANY years ago, due to some foot problems. While nnn is great for kickin' & glidin', it falls short in the turnin' category. The past few years I have transitioned back to the traditional duckbill style, & am loving the increased turnability. A good boot is the key.

You probably DO need more skis - wait a bit & I am sure you will get something for $100 - I always have!

 

[skiguy]

and yes will still go in the track with a 85mm track,which by present day standards is actually quite narrow.

and yes will still go in the track with a 85mm TIP, which by present day standards is actuall quite narrow.

Jaks are "Super Fat" telemark skiis.Good for lift served or backcountry Powder and Crud days.Although I have seen people(awesome skiers) ski boards like this on the hardpack.Believe it or not I saw a guy going in the Marcy Dam truck road with these towing a sled last season! So much for the 65mm wide Track. The Jak is 127mm at the tip in a 180cm Ski. He was headed into the Pelky Basin obviously with the priority of doing some downhill backcountry.Good example of choosing a specfic weapon for a specific deed.If he had been headed to flowed lands it would have been a different story.

Ursas on the other hand are on the other side of the continum. Definitely a more traditional kick and glide board. A bit narrower and lighter than the Pavo but not enough of a contrast from the Pavo to be a compliment to a growing quiver;not to mention that partial mental edges will reduce your turning power on harder pack surfaces.Don't be lead a stray Jay H by a to eager salesman looking to get rid of last years gear. I think your plan on the Orions is a good one. Backcountry.com was getting rid of the Orion at $149 at the end of last season.As far as flex and camber you would size the Orion the same as your Pavo's; that's if your happy with them.Because these are compact skiis (only three sizes) they are very broad on what the sizing charts say for your weight that you can use.

I was not going to say it but I would agree with AMF on NNN or SNS BC bindings.
They don't really seem to have the torsional control that a Three Pin and or a cable binding has to really stear a ski although this is somewhat depended on your boot. There are some pretty high/stiff BC boots out there.
What really scares me about them is their dependabilty and even more is their field repairability. Lot's of moving parts and very tough to work on even in a heated workshop with a bench let alone in the field. An extra three pin and screws is easy to carry in a repair kit especially if you are talking about a group.Only three screws to remove and three to put back in.

 

[Jay H]

Thanks Skiguy... The Pavos were my first skis I've ever owned. I never really got into downhill skiing when I was growing up, never liked paying to sit on lift lines and never enjoyed crowds, kind of the antithesis of backcountry XC Skiing so when I saw the pair of Pavos at Campmor in the right size (160cms), I bought it on the spot. They are very good for me, they pass the newspaper tests and I find myself going uphill pretty good as long as I focus on the proper technique. Similarly, the NNN-BC and the 1550s are my first boots or bindings I have ever tried. Live and learn though. I'm kind of undecided. I'd like to try the 3-pin bindings but that means I'll have to buy better boots and I'm really trying to be a better skier rather than just spending money on different skis. But I know what you mean about the quiver of skis. I am a pretty avid cyclist with 5 bikes..

I'll probably do what my sister did with her XC skis, the 3 year plan, buy skis one year, then boots the next, then get poles for christmas...

Jay

 

[skiguy]

The point here Jay H is your skiing!
Wether it be Locked heels or free....
Nordic,Alpine, or a Board it's all slidding on SNOW.
Area,Backcountry or out the Backdoor it's Freedom.
Keep the faith and your ear to the ground...cause there is always a turn or a new piece of gear to try.

 

[Jay H]

Thought I'd just post this that I just saw the orions on sale here:

backcountry.com

For $170 which is a good deal. It's the 175s though and too long for me. However, I'd pass this on to anybody else looking at them.

Plus, finances is going to be bad for me. I am probably buying a new commuter/touring bike and need to save up for my Alaska trip too.

Jay

 

[dave.m]

JayH,

Putting it in cycling terms, boots are like tires in that they really decide a lot about the rest of the frame set up and bike style.

If modern xc skate or combi boots are like 25c slicks, then your 1550 are like 28mm training slicks. Yes, they provide a tick more control and comfort but most folks won't notice a huge difference. Running the analogy a bit further, plastic boots like the Excursion are like knobby MTB tires while 75mm boots like the Karhu Sirius are sort of like 32c cyclo tires. Note that while most folks will have to pay attention to notice the difference between 25c and 28c slicks, moving up 32c cyclo tires is a very, very noticable difference. While cyclo tires won't turn a road frame into a MTB, you can do things in the dirt with them that you could never dream of with 28c slicks. In the same way, moving up to a 75mm boot like the Sirius, or better yet, to a plastic boot like the Excursion, will totally change what you can do on skis and will totally determine what kind of ski you can drive.

So, all of this to say that the biggest decision you have to make is what kind of boots you want to own (and very much related, what kind of skiing you want to do). If you stick with the 1550, which is a fine boot btw, it really defines a certain range of skiing activities that you need to stay in to get the best results.

Personally, I think light NNN-BC boots are totally oversold in terms of their ability to drive wider skis. I would not want a low cut boot llike the 1550 on anything any wider than the Pavo, myself. They might be usable on the Pyxis but the side cut changes on that ski and in longer lengths its pretty close to 80/60/70 profile which is too wide for that little boot imo.

If you want to stick with the 1550s and press into more turning, there are some things you might consider....
1) Look for a better turning skinny ski than the Pavo. The Pavo/Lookout is a great hiking trail ski but I think they turn like old dog water. Look for a flatter cambered "old school tele" ski that is made for turning. Current examples might include the current E99 or Madshus Glittertind. I have some older Black Diamond Synchro which are just a tick wider. They turn circles around the Pavos and I'll ski them on groomed blue runs without hesitation. I would also strongly suggest getting a waxable ski since running lifts on no-wax skis will kill the no-wax pattern real fast.

My thoughts on this type of ski are here:
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-skis.html#OLD SCHOOL
and my thoughts on skis in general are here:
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-skis.html
BTW, I categorize the Ursa as a Catamount class ski and the Pyxis as a Cirque class ski.
My thoughts on kick waxing are here:
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/wax.html

2) Consider putting stiffer bumpers in your NNN-BC bindings to help the boot to bend at the ball of the foot easier.

3) Find an old copy of Steve Barnett's "Cross-Country Downhill" which is the only book I know that discusses turning on skinny skis.

If you consider getting a burlier boot, I would suggest an Excursion class boot to augment your 1550s. With those 2 boots, you would be able to cover pretty much the entire range of nordic backcountry conditions here iin New England.
This might be of some help..
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/quick-picks.html

Last comment... Turning on skinny skis is hard (albiet noble). You might want to rent heavier gear and give it a try along with lessons.

 

[Jay H]

As always, thanks Dave. I wasn't planning on putting the same bindings and using the 1550s on it actually. I was planning on doing the three year plan or so, try to find closeouts and beg for gifts/money for it from family.

I've taken the Pavos on some intermediate groomed ski trails. I've considered my lack of skill the determining factor of why it was hard to turn rather than the ski itself.

Yeah, I'd like to try the 75mm binding, I'd like to borrow my sister's skis someday (which are 75mm) although I'm sure my feet are bigger than hers.

Jay


P.S. I've ridden in dirt and even in some mud on 28c slicks on my commuter road bike before. This was before using an old hardtail as my commuter. I'm actually going to be upgrading that old Marin to a new GF Hoo Koo and put disc brakes on it and work with Old Man Mountain to put a custom rear rack on it, one that will clear the caliper in the rear (the caliper sticks out enough to inhibit a rack arm on a standard rear rack).

 

[dave.m]

As always, thanks Dave. I wasn't planning on putting the same bindings and using the 1550s on it actually. I was planning on doing the three year plan...

In that case, I would set my sights on the following:
Skis - Waxable Classic AT (e.g. Dorado), Narrow Shaped (e.g. Fischer Rebound) or Wide Shaped ski. See my ski page for more details.
Boots - Excursion class plastic boots. See my boot page for more details.
Bindings - Voile 3 Pin Cable.
Skins - 65mm mm with a Lou Dawson style rat-tail.

That combined with your skinnier rig will cover most of the bases. If you want to skimp on skis, look for an old pair of straight beginners skis. Garage sales are possibilities. You want free and the softest, flexiest thing you can find. This and pins will get you started for cheap, saving you $$s for boots.

P.S. I've ridden in dirt and even in some mud on 28c slicks on my commuter road bike before. This was before using an old hardtail as my commuter. I'm actually going to be upgrading that old Marin to a new GF Hoo Koo and put disc brakes on it and ...

HEH. Well, you can roller skate in a buffalo herd, despite what the song says and if you ski like Steve Barnett, you can ski the steeps in 1550s. I prefer a sport bike for touring. I never had any problems stopping fulling loaded even with my old Dia Compe 500Gs, so long as they had the old Scott brake pads (predecessor to the KoolStops, which I like). One thing I wanted on my touring bike was high availability of parts, which is I why I stuck with a 36 spoke wheel. You going to tour with the disc brakes?

Velo is its own sickness and way OT so I'll stop now. Last thing... I put Nitto Moustache bars on an early 80s vintage Trek that I rescued last year. Loving it for around town curb jumping.

 

[Jay H]

Yeah, the Nittos are cool... Thread drift here I guess. I just tour on flat MTB bars with bar ends.

I am not getting the disc brakes for touring, I'm getting them for winter commuting. Many puddles on the trails I ride and if the ice crust breaks through, my rims get wet and then of course freeze and then I have no brakes or spotting off/on brakes.

The HKEK comes with V-brakes so it has the brake arms on the seat stays which I do need for my front and rear racks. For touring, I can always take out the discs and put the V's back on (the brake levers are the same on mechanical discs/v-brakes). Then I can get a different wheelset, run 1.5" slicks and go touring.

Jay

 

[snowshoe]

Jay If you are looking toinvest in other pair of skies wait until spring and then hit Neils Sports by me. I bought my Pavos from him for 90 bucks with bindings. You should be able to get a deal like that as well. I have been using a classic and cross terrain no metal edge skies for years and now that I had the chance to use my Pavos that is all I use. I think any wider would be overkill.

Give me a call sometime. I should be able to get out localy on weekends. Now that I am getting into the swing with the academy I have some time to get out play. My computer is getting fixed so I will let you know when it is up and running. Cant wait for the 4-8 inches tomorrow.

 

[Jay H]

Hi Shawn, we got about 5 inches already down here in NJ by me.

I probably wont be looking for new skis anytime soon. Too much trips to save up for. My Wrangell trip is not going to be cheap and if I do go to Seattle on the way back, it's going to be even more.... Plus, I'm trying to save up for a new bike by next winter...

Jay