Keeping Water Liquid

[Mr. X]

Just wondering here. I know we've talked about this quite a bit, but has anyone brought this tecnique of keeping water liquid? I was thinking that if you use on of those OR or equiv bags to keep your nalgene bottle in, to just throw a hand warmer in with it. Good or Bad idea? Has it been mentioned before?

As usual...
-X

 

[Rugger]

Just wondering here. I know we've talked about this quite a bit, but has anyone brought this tecnique of keeping water liquid?
As usual...
-X

Don't boil it?

 

[BrentD22]

Why NO boil?

What is the negative of boiling your water?

 

[ripple]

I keep a hand warmer next to my platypus and it keeps it from turning to solid ice. Wrap a T shirt around it and keep the warmer from making direct contact (just incase). And yes I have mentioned it before.

 

[Rugger]

It was a joke - if you don't boil it, it doesn't turn to steam, it stays liquid.

 

[Hillwalker]

In Poor Taste

You could carry freeze dried water. Saves weight too.

 

[percious]

What is the negative of boiling your water?

It has been said that boiling water freezes faster than cold water. There is a certain amount of evidence to support this, but I don't understand the physics behind it.

-percious

 

[SAR-EMT40]

It has been said that boiling water freezes faster than cold water. There is a certain amount of evidence to support this, but I don't understand the physics behind it. -percious

I won't go into it but Q=MC(deltaT). Enough said.

As the teacher used to say. Figuring out the rest of the problem is left to the user as an exercise.


Okay, look up the Mpemba Effect.

Keith

 

[Chip]

I won't go into it but Q=MC(deltaT). Enough said.

As the teacher used to say. Figuring out the rest of the problem is left to the user as an exercise.


Okay, look up the Mpemba Effect.

Keith

"...hot water does freeze sooner than cold water under a wide range of circumstances. It is not impossible, and has been seen to occur in a number of experiments. However, despite claims often made by one source or another, there is no well-agreed explanation for how this phenomenon occurs."

Well, you never know what you're going to learn on VFTT !

Non-scientific experience (based on personal observation, Mpemba not withstanding, IMHO, all-standard-disclaimers-apply) indicates very hot/boiling water takes longer to freeze in my insulated nalgenes than does tap-water and tap-water takes longer to freeze than does winter stream water.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Boiling or near boiling water will take longer. But 30degC water and 70degC water the 70degC water will freeze first. This has been known since Aristotle (about 300BC) and is still poorly understood though there are many theories. Ice cream manufacturers also use this fact to freeze their Ice Cream sooner by raising its temperature as well. At least that is what I have read.

I will also say that none of this is first hand knowledge. Someday I will have to verify this experiment as well. Maybe something for me to do this winter.

Keith

 

[Nessmuk]

I will also say that none of this is first hand knowledge. Someday I will have to verify this experiment as well. Maybe something for me to do this winter. Keith

It is also anecdotally known that if your home water pipes happen to freeze, chances are it is the hot water pipes that freeze first. Now there's a good experiment for ya.

 

[dave.m]

Just wondering here. I know we've talked about this quite a bit, but has anyone brought this tecnique of keeping water liquid? I was thinking that if you use on of those OR or equiv bags to keep your nalgene bottle in, to just throw a hand warmer in with it. Good or Bad idea? Has it been mentioned before?

I'm not sure if the heat packs will actually produce enough heat to work but I generally don't need it.

I put hot (near boiling) water in nalgenes and put the nalgenes in a bottle cozy. In all but the worst weather, this stays liquid till dusk.

I will say that the open foam cozys you can buy at the store (OR and others) aren't as good at insulating as homemade ones made from 2 layers of closed cell foam and duct tape. Not as pretty but very effective.

Others I know prefer to use small nalgenes kept inside of inner jacket pocket. Another approach is to use (heavy) vacum thermoses.

 

[Stan]

It is also anecdotally known that if your home water pipes happen to freeze, chances are it is the hot water pipes that freeze first. Now there's a good experiment for ya.

How true! I was just talking with someone yesterday and we were wondering why it's her hot water pipes that freeze if she doesn't take steps to prevent it and not the cold water pipes. Maybe it is related to the air bubbles in the water. In that case, the solution is to pack champagne, not water.

... well, what I do is heat up water, add honey and tea, and have a pleasantly warm drink for at least a few hours. In winter I'll use a thermos wrapped in spare clothing and that'll last a long day hike.

 

[WSC]

Kevin is correct

Here is my understanding of the subject.
"Pure" water freezes at 32 degrees F, (0 degress C). But Mountain Water and Tap water are rarely pure they have in them dissolved minerals and gases which lower the freezing point. That is why we salt our roads in winter the salt dissolves into the snow ice mix and lowers its freezing point. If you boil water you rid it of gasses that impede the freezing process, and it will freeze closer to 32 degrees F.

However if you have "Pure" water at room temperature and Boiling and you put them aside in seperate containers and put them in the freezer they both will freeze at 32 degrees the room temperature water will freeze first, as it will take longer for the boiling water to reach freezing.
Hot pipes may freeze first as they may freeze at a temperature closer to 32 degrees F as there are less gases and minerals in the water,(due to being heated in the hot water heater), that is in the pipes compared to the cold water pipes.
This is my understanding,
Thanks
WSC

 

[blacklab2020]

Without hand warmers, i use a fairly standard system that works, but the handwarmers is an okay idea, it will work better if the water is already warm to begin with, some handwarmers lose efficiency in a very cold medium.

always start with hot water at the begining of the trip or when you put it in the bottle.

At the begining of a trip... hot water goes in... one bottle on the outside, the other two liters wrapped in wool socks or a jacket within the pack. The external bottle is in a wwater bottle parka or my jacket pocket. I general have the bottles upside down until i drink more than half, then i place them upright.

at night in camp I melt all the snow i need for that night and the next day until dinner time... near-boiling water for tomorrow goes into nalgenes which are then placed in the bottom of the sleeping bag... Sometimes a thermos is used. The rest I drink that night. With this routine, if the water is insulated properly in the pack and the external bottle (0.5 L) against my chest, I have gone days in the backcountry with no trouble. Though, ice will build up at times and you have to maintain your water bottles, but its not that bad.

Just be sure to drink/use ALL of the water, dont forget about any water laying around to freeze a perfectly good bottle up.

Best of Luck.
~Justin

 

[DougPaul]

I carry my water in Nalgene wide mouth bottles in OR bottle parkas. I rarely have any difficulty with my water freezing during the day. Never needed a handwamer.

If starting from home, I just use cold tap water. If camping, I fill the bottle with boiling water.

If you use a wool sock to insulate a bottle, use a new sock. A worn sock doesn't insulate nearly as well. (Voice of experience...) Placing the bottle and sock in a small stuff sack helps even more by reducing air movement.

Carrying the bottle in your pack will provide some additional insulation from the contents of your pack. You can also wrap the bottle in spare clothing.

Themos bottles also work, but they are rather heavy. (Get a metal lined one--prevents broken glass in your drink if you drop it.)

Bigger bottles have a smaller surface to volume ratio and will take longer to cool and freeze.

Dave.m:
I once made a bottle insulator from closed cell foam (1 layer, 1/2 inch thick) and duck tape. Didn't work very well. Don't know why. The bottle would also freeze into the insulator which could be annoying...

Doug

 

[Lawn Sale]

The case depends on the environmental conditions, of which we can rule out many and keep things simple. WSC and Kevin Rooney are correct in that impurities in the water and the lack of dissolved gases will have an influence in how fast water freezes. If we take a real world scenario, where you boil water and pour it into a Nalgene and take cold water and pour it into a Nalgene, the boiled water will freeze much slower than the cold water due to the energy accumulated from the boiling process. There are numerous exceptions to the experiment, which I won't go into as I don't think they're relevant in this case.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

Two things..

Wide mouth bottles are better, because the narrow mouth can freeze over. DP mentioned that he uses wide mouth, but not why.

Carry your bottle upside down. Freezing from splashing happens at the top, with the bottle upside down, the top is the bottom, and your top won't freeze shut.

 

[Mike P.]

I've placed them in my double fleece mittens on day hikes with no problem. The one on the waist belt upside down in an old wool sock, by teh end it's sometimes slushy.

 

[spencer]

some of you have seen my homemade bottle parkas. I do have one OR one but it was too damn expensive for what it its and the zipper freezes up sometimes.

I've been making my own for a few years and they work as well as the OR parkas and only cost a couple of bucks each. maybe I'll make some more this winter and dish them out.

and as PH said, always keep the bottles upside down if the water will be around long enough to freeze.

spencer