Kudos once again to EMS

[ADKatie]

Hey Stoopid...

Sorry dude, I'm a peaceful person, but you jumped on this guy for nothing.

He stated: I bought a pair of trek poles from them in the summer of 2002. I've broken them three times since then...not because of defects, but due to my "stressing" them. They've repaired them every time."

Repairs are cheaper than buying new stuff. If it's broke, try to get it fixed. Seems innocent enough.

Nowhere did he state he expected them to replace it for warranty policy, and he did not (quoting you) "specifically (almost bragging) stated that the item was broken 3 times and returned for service under the return policy".

How did you know he didn't intend to pay for the repairs? You assumed he was abusing a return policy when I didn't see that in his message at all.

 

[hillman1]

Someone on this board found a section of hiking pole that was lost on the trip from Gray to Marcy. I had posted that I lost my eyeglasses up there. The guy that found the pole section emailed me saying he found it. I emailed the lady who lost her pole section telling her it had been found. She said she didn't need it, because ems had given her a new section free of charge, knowing that she had lost it. That is pretty good service. I bought a pair of yaktrax from ems last fall. I tried to use them a few times and hated them. I went in an returned them, and bought a pair of austri/alpin crampons. I had no rediept, and the staff was very accomodating. They said if I wasn't 100% satisfied, they take the item back. And I love thier closeout rack.

 

[stoopid]

Re: Hey Stoopid...

How did you know he didn't intend to pay for the repairs? You assumed he was abusing a return policy when I didn't see that in his message at all.

Yes, I assumed and BigAL has not stated otherwise.

Personal choice is coming into play here. I won't get something serviced that I broke. If someone else feels they should, and EMS wants to encourage this, then that's fine. When their prices get too 'out of my reach' because they're spoending this time and money servicing abused gear, I'll probably have to go elsewhere for my gear. As it stands, MOST of my gear is EMS or purchased at an EMS store locally. It works well, and I haven't needed to return anything yet [knocks on head].

My apologies for coming on strong, it struck a nerve is all. I'll keep it in the "I". If I returned items I knew I broke I'd feel like a thief and liar.

 

[Woody]

I have two EMS packs that I use extensively. One for day hikes and climbing. The other for backpacking. I have had both of them for about 5 years. I also have a EMS brand Gore-tex XCL Shell that has been very dependable over the several years that I have been wearing it during thunderstorms, ice climbing and winter camping trips. I am on my second pair of EMS treking poles. The first ones had several hundred miles of use on them and I had bent them and bent them back repeadedly keeping my balance on rocky trails and using them as a rudder while glissading (I use my ice axe now). I also have several other pieces of EMS clothing and gear. All of it has been used and abused in all seasons, mostly in the White Mountains.

My Point is that EMS offers several grades of gear and clothing products and you have to get the gear designed for the type of use (abuse?) you are going to subject it to. I also make sure that I take care of the gear when it is not in use by keeping it clean and dry and stored properly. From what I have seen lately and hear from the EMS employees that I have spoken with, EMS is moving back towards a focus on serious gear and away from "urban wear".

 

[the starchild]

EMS new return policy

the new cash policy requiring reciept is probably mostly due to shoplifting, especially professionals trying to make off with cash, not gear.

also, IMHO, its sad to see people take advantage of a return policy made in good faith to stand behind thier products and develop a good relationship with a loyal customer base.
if you broke it due to abuse/misuse or have no soles left on those boots you bought 2 years ago......buy a freakin' new one! prices increase due to this crap.
if a piece of equipment fails, doesn't perform as well as expected, doesn't fit, isn't needed, or other just disatisfaction arises, then by all means return it for exchange or refund.

 

[dug]

I agree with Stoopid.

I worked in retail for a few years, and the sleaziness that goes on with returning items is very frusterating. It is costly, and it only drives up the cost of everything else in the store.

For example, one particular manufacturer does not take any returns back. None. So, what they do is to establish a price to the buyer for the store, and they estimate X amount with be "defective". They then take a percentage off the deal to help to pay for the items should they need to be returned. If the store doesn't take anything back, they win out. If they have a lot...they lose alot and therefore have to pass that cost along in other products to make up the difference. Often, you are dealing with a clerk who really doesn't give a crap what is being returned and what isn't...they get sweet-talked (or screamed at) and they just take it back. Don't matter to them...they are still getting their paycheck and providing "good customer service". Meanwhile, the store owner is taking one backside as they are losing $$$ on the transaction.

In most other scenarios, the manufacturer takes the product back (and they just toss it away if it's worn). This drives the entire cost of their product line up...costing the consumer more. The store still has to pay for someone to make the transaction, box up the "defective" item, and to ship it off. These are real costs associated with doing business that we all pay for.

Just because a store takes something back...doesn't mean you have the right to return it. It is, in effect, authorized stealing.

If a product is truly defective, of course it should be returned. But, to have poles replaced for missing lengths, breaking them due to stress, or just plain wear and tear is not something I would ever do. We all pay. It's like insurance fraud...we all pay in the long run.

A majority of my damaged gear I did all on my own. I am kind of rough on my gear, so I try to buy quality. I have broken my BD ski poles numerous times. I purchased some replacement lengths and when I snap them, I have spare lengths to replace them. I would never consider going to a store to have them replace them. I don't know the exact situation with the other broken poles, so this isn't an indictment...this is just what I do.

 

[Jasonst]

I agree with Stoopid.


"Just because a store takes something back...doesn't mean you have the right to return it. It is, in effect, authorized stealing."




Huh??? Yo no comprendo?

 

[LittleBear]

Sometimes you try to get an item repaired or try to get a piece to repair an item and the store won't accommodate the repair, but replace the item instead.

I had a pair of Leki poles and I broke one of the plastic pieces where the telescoping ends join. (I was trying to clean my poles 'cause so much dirt and accumulated over the years.) I brough them to LLBean (where I had purchased them) to show them the piece I needed - that's all I wanted. Instead the customer service rep took the poles and gave me a voucher to buy a new pair.

Clearly, I was at fault here for losing that plastic piece. I tried arguing with the CS rep, but she was insistant - to her, it was an exchange, even though all I wanted was to get the plastic piece and fix the poles myself.

If this ever happens again, I think I will contact Leki directly to see if I can purchase that piece.

 

[Quietman]

A few years back, my brother bought a pair of $120 boots from EMS. After a few hikes(6 months), the sole of one boot started to delaminate, clearly a product defect. He retuned then and was given another pair. I was unaware of this. A couple of weeks later, I was browsing the shelves in the bargain basement(now the bargain corner) and saw a good pair of boots that needed a little work for $20. Took them home, applied a little shoe goo and used them on our next hike. When my brother saw them he said, "Hey, you're wearing my boots!" I said cool, and I only paid $20 for my pair

Obviously the $20 didn't cover EMS's cost but they do try to recoup some of the cost of their return policy.

By the way, the boots lasted another 5 years.

 

[Jasonst]

Ok, none of this makes sense to me. I have a broken item and in good faith I try to get the item fixed, willing to pay for the cost of the fix. The store insists that they cover the cost, one way or another. What's the problem with this? Am I missing something here?

 

[steppinwolf]

I love EMS. Always have. The two things I like the most about that place, besides their great service, are their wide selection of quality merchandise and the knowledge and helpfulness of their salespeople. It's nice to know that you can pretty much do all your shopping in one store and their price has always been very fair. Where else can you go to find quality hiking clothes, maps, the latest GPS's, Suunto altimeters, Topo map software, crampons, bandanas, filters, books, packs, tents, boots, poles, etc etc etc, all under one roof? If they don't have it, about the only other place you'll find it is online.

I rarely return anything, but just recently I had my own kudos to give to EMS as far as their return policy. I recently purchased a new pair of hiking boots from them, after trying on pair after pair with a most patient and knowledgeable sales person, and I told her the only possible concern I had with the boots I finally found was one of traction. Traction was supposed to be one of the strong points of these boots I was buying, and she went as far as suggesting to me that if I wasn't totally satisfied with the traction on these boots, I could return them no questions asked, even after doing a hike. Can you imagine that? Being able to return a pair of expensive boots if I thought the traction wasn't what I hoped it would be, even after doing a hike with them? Well, to make a long story not much longer, I tried the boots on a hike, and unfortunately came out of it with very little confidence in their traction on bedrock (I even tested them at home afterward vs my old worn out boots and vs another pair I had in order to make sure I wasn't imagining the traction problems. In fact, I'll talk about this silly home lab experiment in another thread when I get a chance). Anyway, I washed them off, and I ended up bringing them back to EMS. Not only did they cheerfully return my money, but said they were actually glad to get the feedback on them about the traction! I couldn't help but spend some of my returned money on some maps and other things. What a great store with such nice people to wait on you. I always feel fortunate to have that EMS store within reasonable driving distance.

 

[steppinwolf]

Sorry, Kevin, if I got off the subject of the quality of EMS's product, but I was just going along with the people who earlier had heaped some praise on the store and was adding some of my own.

As far as my own exerience with the quality of the EMS label, I usually only buy things like their clothing and haven't had any problems yet. I've had excellent luck with the durability of items such as their nylon cargo hiking pants, lightweight Goretex jackets, etc. However, when it comes to anything other than clothing, I'm too happy with names such as Leki or Grivel, to try something that might not be as proven and am glad to hear the feedback in this thread, albeit pretty much negative, on their hardwear products like poles. Oh yeah, and there's no way I'd ever try something like an EMS freeze-dried dehydrated hamburger!

 

[brushhog]

Re; New EMS return policy

If you don't have a receipt it probably doesn't much mattr if you bought the product before Oct. 3, 2004. Because from that date fwd. that's in effect. EMS is going to be going thru some big changes, that the customers hopefully will be receptive to. Our CEO Wil Manzer has some great plans and it appears as though we are going forward but will try to get back to our roots. I'm excited and looking forward to it. Anyway thanks for listening.

 

[spaddock]

I don't shop much at EMS but I stop in from time to time on my way through Lake Placid.

I would never buy much from EMS simply because I live less then 2km from Mountain Equipment Coop (MEC). I've always been super happy with their brand no matter if its clothing or hard gear. And I haven't been able to beat their prices anywhere.


S.

 

[AT_Syracuse]

EMS Quality...

Now that EMS has been bought off of the big corporation it was once part of; Wil Manzer, the new CEO has got some big plans for EMS. I'm sure most of you have noticed the new logo, that's just the first step. Here's a comparison:

The North Face Denali Jacket vs. EMS Summit Tech Fleece:

TNF: Classic 300 wt. Fleece, Pit Zips, Nylon Panels for Wind Resistance, 2 chest pockets and 2 lower front pockets. (Price $165.00)

EMS: Polartec Thermal Pro Fleece w/ Berber fleece interior, Pit Zips, Nylon Panels for Wind Resistance, 2 Chest Pockets and 2 Lower Front Pockets. (Price $125.00)

For 40 dollars less you're getting a warmer higher quality jacket than the trendy, and now piss poor made Denali Fleece.

EMS is heading back towards its roots and not the corporate machine it was just a year ago, you'll start seeing a lot more higher end technical gear within the next few months. I mean already they've come out with some kick ass new gear, Gore Windstopper N2S Jackets, the Apollo soft shell, EMS Summit Tech Fleece, Spire Rucksack, Mountainlight series sleeping bags... I could go on.

As for EMS return policy, if a customer has a poor experience at a store they are likely to stop shopping there and tell 10 of their friends about the piss poor service they recieved, that's a lot of lost revenue, so they find it most beneficial to go all out with customer service, that's what their aim is, the best possible products teamed with the best possible customer service.

 

[cooperhill]

AT, do you work for EMS because your post sounds very much like an ad.

 

[Jasonst]

No kidding... I do agree though about the summit fleece. I have the vest and it's pretty great. I recently owned a NF Denali vest and I think the EMS vest is much better.

 

[Quietman]

New EMS Catalog

Just received my the EMS catalog and I guess they really are taking a new direction. I just wish that they'd put the PGR(Parental Guidance Recommended) rating on the front cover instead of the back page. Nothing that my eleven year old hasn't seen in PG movies but was a shock compared to previous mailings. Several nude rear end shots, mentions of tent farts, bowel movements, and shrinkage after skinny dipping are noteable.
Gone are endless pages of office clothing & street wear, replaced by lots of high end(and costly) gear and many great outdoor pictures. Overall, a very edgy approach geared towards the younger outdoors fanatic. Interesting contrast to Campmor's one color, newspaper weight catalog. It will be interesting to see if it is a success. Unfortunately, their bargain corner in the Peterborough NH store has also been showing shrinkage lately. Hopefully it won't disappear!

 

[Warren]

I thought the catalog was pretty neat. A fair amount of informative text, for a catalog. It's worth noting that the catalog mailing included an advent style calendar, behind each little door is the sale statement for that day (20% off anything you can drink from).

 

[Desalad]

The response was to a post that specifically (almost bragging) stated that the item was broken 3 times and returned for service under the return policy. By strict definition that policy does not account for accidents or abuse.

I would like someone to intentionally break an item that can be returned to EMS under their warranty, and TELL the EMS employee that it was broken intentionally/abused. Talk is cheap, especially on the internet. Now bring this to reality -- EMS will not replace that item. Why? Because if you don't lie then you don't get the replacement. You have to lie in order to get an abused item replaced under warranty.

I don't even see how this topic is debatable.

Stoopid, maybe I missed something in BigAl's post about "stressing" his poles and bringing them back in for repair, but he didn't right that they were replaced for free, he simply stated that he brought them in for repair.

I do agree with you though, it's cheap and dishonest if you abuse a product and return it under warranty - HOWEVER, EMS's policy states 100% satisfaction guaranteed, no questions asked. So while all the dishonest people may jump on that, they certainly expose themselves to the abuse.

I personally am an advocate of EMS clothing. I also own an EMS tent and an EMS +40 sleeping bag. I personally can't afford to buy Arc'teryx and other very expensive gear, so EMS is a nice compromise. I go camping and hiking in the winter and rent their -20 sleeping bags, I've never had a problem. I've also been happy with their new softshell Apollo jacket and pants.

Bottom line is we are debating a persons integrity here, not the quality (which I think is good - not great, but good) of the equipment.

That's my .02