This reminds me on an LNT article in Outside Magazine back in the 70's. One of the people interviewed was an OB Instructor. When asked about the use of TP here reply was : "No need for the stuff..plenty of leaves, sticks and stones around ".
Leave no Trace...Really?
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This reminds me on an LNT article in Outside Magazine back in the 70's. One of the people interviewed was an OB Instructor. When asked about the use of TP here reply was : "No need for the stuff..plenty of leaves, sticks and stones around ".
Little Rickie
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Adk_dib
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I can tel you were that water would have gone if he told me that.
not everything is black and white.
not everything is black and white.
RoySwkr
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When I hiked the Long Trail in the 60s, each shelter had a dump for you to leave flattened cans (which is what your food came in, of course) etc., even those decomposed over time
But if you'd packed them out and taken them to your town dump, that would have probably just meant tossing them over a bank
Times change
J.Dub
Active member
I was afraid the photos were going to show something other than what they really did, which was a great trip!
Good point, there, Tom. I neglected to consider the context.
The photos are of the hike *except* for the LNT part!
I was uncomfortably coached by an aging park ranger in Baxter while stopping at Chimney Pond about packing out my poop. She talked for more than ten minutes about the importance of packing it out, and how much of a recent trend it has been that people have pooped in the alpine (her words, not mine). Mental note.....take some Immodium AD along during hikes. Problem solved.
Regarding dishwater, we really don't generate too much if any. We have mostly been using Mountain House meals so our pot has mostly been used for boiling water, The empty pasta pouch becomes a bag for wrapper and other trash storage.
woodstrider
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LNT sump
OK I guess I may be included with some of the crazy LNT backpackers- but when I clean my pots, etc. after a meal I always just scape and rinse using some of my (purified) drink (like water, tea or coffee) and then drink it down. My pots don't get too yucky and if I wash them right after I eat the food can be lifted easily. If I should burn the pot, I have to live with it until I get home. I pack out all my garbage. Once in Montana I even packed out a meal that I prepared but could not eat. I am sure that the goats would have relished it (it was very salty) but I could not leave it behind, not in an area where there were no trails, no fire rings and no garbage.
I like knowing that I am leaving the spot that I used little worse for wear- and not leaving any soap in the backcountry and not leaving any particles of food on/in the ground around my camp is just plain common sense. It works for me.
OK I guess I may be included with some of the crazy LNT backpackers- but when I clean my pots, etc. after a meal I always just scape and rinse using some of my (purified) drink (like water, tea or coffee) and then drink it down. My pots don't get too yucky and if I wash them right after I eat the food can be lifted easily. If I should burn the pot, I have to live with it until I get home. I pack out all my garbage. Once in Montana I even packed out a meal that I prepared but could not eat. I am sure that the goats would have relished it (it was very salty) but I could not leave it behind, not in an area where there were no trails, no fire rings and no garbage.
I like knowing that I am leaving the spot that I used little worse for wear- and not leaving any soap in the backcountry and not leaving any particles of food on/in the ground around my camp is just plain common sense. It works for me.
jrbren
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Really. I am a huge advocate of LNT. In the Sierra you were required to burn our TP before burying it. Also we did not use soap to do dishes, just hot water, and yes, for the most part we drank our dishwater. One of my friends in my group is a fly fisherman and he told me even the biodegradable soap we had would kill fish. My guess is the OP would not take kindly to wag bags ? Anyone who wants to go to a no rules free for all should trek in India and visit Stok Kangri base camp. If there were any rules no one followed them. The challenge was to find the oldest pack animal manure to pitch your tent on since it would stink the least. And be ready to be serenaded by a donkey likely to be hitched right near you tent. Don't get me wrong, that is a great trek I would highly recommend to anyone, but certain aspects could be greatly improved if everyone there followed LNT.
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Ammo Cans and Kitty Litter gets pretty interesting too. A practice advocated by the Maine Island Trail Association last time I checked.
John H Swanson
Active member
First off, if you backpack in really dry country, eventually you will wind up doing this just to preserve water.
Second, In NOLS, a big LNT proponent, they reco straining your dishwater so all food particles are captured and then puting those food particles in the trash bag for carrying out. Wet food is heavy, so drinking the rinse water and food particles is actually more efficient.
A great quote i heard was, "it might be an oatmeal flake to you but to that chipmunk, it's Thankgiving."
In practice I eat what I cook down to the last bit and dump the rinse water. I don't carry a stainer.
Craig
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Nols claims they defined the principals of LNT (that they had been teaching for years) for the Forest Service that they would implement in the early 90's.
DSettahr
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A bit late to this thread, but yeah, the idea of the "gut sump" isn't all that uncommon. As John stated, NOLS makes all of their students do this. So too do a lot of other outdoor educational organizations (summer camps, wilderness therapy programs, and the like). I picked up the habit myself when I was employed by a Wilderness Therapy program in the Adirondacks. It's particularly common among professional organizations that lead trips comprised of larger groups. Since impact is exponentially related to group size (larger groups have a much greater impact than an equivalent number of people split into several smaller groups), it becomes much more important for the larger groups to hold themselves to a higher standard of following LNT.
It's really not all that bad once you get used to it. In fact, I think it's a lot easier than the alternatives. I don't need to dig a hole to deposit my gray water, I don't even need to get up and relocated to "do the dishes."
It's really not all that bad once you get used to it. In fact, I think it's a lot easier than the alternatives. I don't need to dig a hole to deposit my gray water, I don't even need to get up and relocated to "do the dishes."
I think people who have a problem with it are thinking too much water. Only about 1/2 ounce of water is sufficient as an aid to scraping off just about all that is left in the pot. That's just a sip of soup. If you've got an easily-relightable stove, give that 1/2 ounce a brief jolt and it's HOT soup. Why waste the food in favor of screwing with the natural order, when it's so easy to do it right?
Is there any impact with boiled water that have had plastic bags in them? I pre-make all my meals, vaccuum seal them, and freeze them. So, my "dish" is just a pot of boiling water, which gets poured out after. Curious...how bad is that water?
DougPaul
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Dumping boiled water (after it has cooled) should be very similar to dumping unboiled water. (If dumped hot, the heat could kill some plants and organisms.)
Where you dump the water could still be an issue--in the moist NE, broadcasting on land or over foliage it will likely result in negligible impact.
(I'm not an expert--the above is just my semi-educated guesses.)
Doug
David Metsky
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Tom Rankin
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Apparently they do, (see above links), but really, what is the point of that? Out of sight maybe, but still there!
JacobH
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I think I would be more concerned with camo TP than non camo. At least (if it's not buried) you can see it to avoid it! This camo TP business would seemingly make for camo landmines
Also, I will not forget the time I came over the first cap on caps ridge trail and saw a pile of TP in the middle of the trail. And by in the middle of the trail I mean on top of a rock. I know when you gotta go you gotta go but... couldn't they have gone around the OTHER side of the cap with no trail on it??
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