"Leave the Snow Shoes in the Car"???

[Remix]

This brings up a good question -- which trails are commonly skied? Most of the hiking trails I've been on don't seem condusive to skiing. But I'm not a skier, so I don't have any real sense of what is considered ski-able.

Well there isn't a formal list, of course. Obviously, seeing tracks, skiers, or consulting one of the best-places-to-backcountry-ski books are ways to make a list.

 

[TrishandAlex]

Well there isn't a formal list, of course. Obviously, seeing tracks, skiers, or consulting one of the best-places-to-backcountry-ski books is a way to make a list.

Thanks. Not being a skiier, it isn't obvious to me which trails are considered ski-able. I've only seen skiiers on two hiking trails, didn't know it was that common to ski down them.

 

[David Metsky]

Moderator Note
Dial it back a notch, everyone. It's OK to disagree; it's not OK to insult another poster.

 

[chomp]

I'm confused by the pro-snowshoe crowd claiming that the postholers have a "Me, Me, Me" attitude. Isn't the pro-snowshoe argument something like "Well, I don't enjoy the trail when you posthole. Therefore, you must wear snowshoes even though you don't enjoy it."

Seems like its just a matter of preference from both sides. FWIW- I've never had a problem on a postholed trail worth complaining about.

 

[forestgnome]

I often have my snowshoes on my back while ascending a broken popular trail, and I hate it! I'll wear my 36" Tubbs on a hard-packed trail if I possibly can because I like the traction and I don't like them on my back. The slightest slip of the toe drains energy. I wear shoes on Tuckerman Ravine Trail.

If a trail is broken out with the little MSR type shoes, then only those shoes fit into the track. So it's microspikes for the climb and then off-trailing for the way down on snowshoes that float on deep snow.

I'll never wear the MSRs because they are useless in snow. Sure, they are used to break the trail, but ususally in teams. Just because a hiker makes it to the top on fresh snow on MSRs doesn't mean they are better. You could also bareboot to the top in the same conditions if you wanted to.

Once you are off trail on several feet of snow they are nearly worthless.

So, if you see someone on a packed trail carrying snowshoes, don't assume they are inconsiderate. Those of us who use snowshoes that work best on snow have no choice.

happy trails

 

[pks4000]

A lot of good experiencd folks grabbed this thread.
Thanks.
There are so many great new winter climbers out there that a little "edu" from the old guard wont hurt.



Postholing should only occur until you put on your flotation.
Beyond that you are not a climber or mountaineer but a tourist.

If you've never climbed down a steep postholed route after a new 6 inch snowfall or carried out your buddy after her knee wrenched in a "tourist's trap "(Thanks Riva Ridge) you probably will someday and then you can start the thread I just did.

Climb onward!

 

[sardog1]

Right now is when we could use the you-know-who and snowshoes video. I agree with the decision to remove it, but you might also agree with me that the thing was pretty funny. If the erstwhile "Melvin Kaminsky" could send up you-know-who, I guess there's room in the world for that video.

 

[Bill and Sheep]

For me, it all comes down to doing what I can to making the trail a little nicer for the next person. It's an extension of the "leave no trace" philosophy. If I find trash on the trail, I pick it up. If I can clear a blowdown, I do. If there is a big mud hole, I get my feet wet and go through it rather than creating a new herd path. If I'm going to make a mess of a trail with boots, I put on snowshoes. I really don't see any reason the last item is any different than the other ones on my list.

I also try to avoid getting all emotional over finding a trail not just the way I want it. I don't think people generally go out of the way to make things bad for others. It's amazing how well everything works in the Whites with minimal need to regulate things. I think we sometimes get a bit too emotional over things at the expense of just enjoying what we have.

 

[dug]

If we are really concerned about making it nicer for the next guy, why stop at avoiding postholes? I'd also like to not have people all go in the same trench, could you please widen it by going at least two across, and preferably three across? This way I can possibly get a turn in for my skis.

For those breaking the trail with snowshoes, you should also be required to wear some big, beefy, old wooden 54" snowshoes. After that first pass, smaller snowshoes should be worn. Nothing worse than having these spanky new snowshoes going first, and having the trail "broken out" with a print that isn't much bigger than a pair of sorels.

On the steeps, please ensure you are doing your kick-steps for a person in the size range of 5'6"-6'1". Stopping at regular intervals every 200 steps, with a flat section just off the trail so I could stand and give my calves a break would be nice. And, of course, it should go without saying but I will anyway, that avoiding glissading on the way down so as to not ruin the kick steps that were just built would be nice, too.

Next, I think that everyone breaking trail should be, at a minimum, 6'4". It doesn't make a whole helluva lotta sense to break a trail with a short person, because I may still come up behind you and hit some low-lying branches and get snow down my shirt and my bum gets cold.

Why stop at postholes?

 

[Grumpy]

Right now is when we could use the you-know-who and snowshoes video. I agree with the decision to remove it, but you might also agree with me that the thing was pretty funny. ...

Amen to that! We all could use a good chuckle.

While we're on the topic of trail use protocols, I have a question raised by the recent video on skiing down from Mt. Marcy, posted in the NY Q&A section.

On narrow trails, how are downhill-bound skiers supposed to interact with uphill-bound traffic, and vice versa? This question probably applies to butt-sliders and sledders, as well. (I know it is traditional, although the tradition is somewhat controversial, for downbound foot traffic to yield to uphillers, but skis and sliding seem to raise some extra "control" issues for downbound traffic that complicate things.)

Or, is this just not an issue at all?

BTW, I much enjoyed the Mt. Marcy ski video. My own winter hiking days appear to be over, and that provided a nice, vicarious treat.

G.

 

[grouseking]

A lot of good experiencd folks grabbed this thread.
Thanks.
There are so many great new winter climbers out there that a little "edu" from the old guard wont hurt.



Postholing should only occur until you put on your flotation.
Beyond that you are not a climber or mountaineer but a tourist.

If you've never climbed down a steep postholed route after a new 6 inch snowfall or carried out your buddy after her knee wrenched in a "tourist's trap "(Thanks Riva Ridge) you probably will someday and then you can start the thread I just did.

Climb onward!

In response to the first thing bolded: Well, I supposed that makes me the biggest home grown tourist in the history of NH. It is strange, but I do posthole big time...or maybe the better term is sink into the snow. While most people tend to float, I sink, even with snowshoes. It gives me motivation to lose some weight, that is for sure.

Second bolded thing: Yes, I can see why that would be an absolute pain in the butt. But I don't think hikers really think about that situation...well at least I don't. All that is in my mind is, "man, how the heck am I going to will myself up this thing!? If it takes snowshoes, then fine. If I can get up with microspikes or bare boots, then even better. Wearing the shoes can be a pain, but for me it is easier than postholing every 5 min, like forestgnome was saying. Depends on the hike. I guess what I'm trying to say is, you need to hike your own hike, and hikers shouldn't have to be concerned with if the trail is postholed or not. Winter hiking is hard enough.

I haven't "sounded off" in awhile. Hope I don't get eaten alive....

grouseking

 

[TrishandAlex]

Postholing should only occur until you put on your flotation.
Beyond that you are not a climber or mountaineer but a tourist.

Funny, I met a guy on top of Willey last year who is a serious mountaineer (done Denali and Rainier). We descended the WRT together. Half a mile from the car, on the Ethan Pond Trail, the snow became soft and we started punching through. He didn't want to put on snowshoes -- when I made a joke about the snowshoe police getting him, he rolled his eyes and said something to the effect that we were in the mountains, not on a groomed cross-country ski trail.

Again, not endorsing postholing. However, I think the ones who get their hackles raised over the issue MIGHT be in the minority (they're just very vocal about it), and I'm not convinced it has all that much to do with mountaineering experience.

 

[HockeyPuck]

Hiking would be much easier if the forest service added up and down escalators to each of the summits.

I'd also like a free snack bar at each of the summits serving refreshments.

Oh, and electrical outlets so I can blow dry my hair..

Rediculous!

 

[Chip]

While we're on the topic of trail use protocols, I have a question raised by the recent video on skiing down from Mt. Marcy, posted in the NY Q&A section.

On narrow trails, how are downhill-bound skiers supposed to interact with uphill-bound traffic, and vice versa? This question probably applies to butt-sliders and sledders, as well. (I know it is traditional, although the tradition is somewhat controversial, for downbound foot traffic to yield to uphillers, but skis and sliding seem to raise some extra "control" issues for downbound traffic that complicate things.)

Or, is this just not an issue at all?

G.

I've done Marcy in winter more than any other peak and have done it several times with skiers in my group and have always seen skiers going up or down. Please note there are a couple areas of that trail where the foot trail and ski trail separate; so no issue there. Hiking up, you need to know that there might be someone skiing down and I would get out of their way, even if they are supposed to be able to stop. I don't consider it an issue and think it's kind of fun needing to be aware. A friend of mine has an old Super 8 movie he filmed while skiing down which is pretty funny; it's him coming down and hikers going up and you see them getting out of the way/jumping out of the way, mostly happily and smiling, as he is heard "pardon me, excuse me, sorry, hot coffee, lady with a baby..." until he finally crashes into a snow bank.

 

[leaf]

Postholing should only occur until you put on your flotation.
Beyond that you are not a climber or mountaineer but a tourist.

umm.. huh? am i reading this right? climbers don't post-hole? i rarely see climbers anywhere in the vicinity of a snowshoe. to clarify, when i say climbing, i mean.. ya know.. rope, ice tools, ice, screws, front points.. all that.

and in my mountaineering experiences, seeing a pair of snowshoes would look entirely out of place. k, i take that back. we wore them for about 45 minutes on an Alaskan glacier.

maybe you should say.. beyond that you aren't a hiker but a climber.

 

[dr_wu002]

Postholing should only occur until you put on your flotation.
Beyond that you are not a climber or mountaineer but a tourist.

umm.. huh? am i reading this right? climbers don't post-hole? i rarely see climbers anywhere in the vicinity of a snowshoe. to clarify, when i say climbing, i mean.. ya know.. rope, ice tools, ice, screws, front points.. all that.

and in my mountaineering experiences, seeing a pair of snowshoes would look entirely out of place. k, i take that back. we wore them for about 45 minutes on an Alaskan glacier.

maybe you should say.. beyond that you aren't a hiker but a climber.

I would clarify this even further and say that beyond the obvious climbing/mountaineering routes (in winter) all the trails in the Whites are tourist trails. C'mon -- this is walking around in the hills of NH. I always get a kick out of those so called "mountaineers" on easy trails, wearing plastic boots and fancy mountaineering gear and making fun of the so called "tourists". Give me a break.

Post holes are not-that-bad... it's winter hiking! If you want groomed trails go find a place that guarantees them. Thankfully the Whites don't have any ridiculous snow shoe laws (yet)...

Live Free or Die!! It's NH!

-Dr. Wu

 

[David Metsky]

I always get a kick out of those so called "mountaineers" on easy trails, wearing plastic boots and fancy mountaineering gear and making fun of the so called "tourists".

This from a guy who wore running shoes up Washington this weekend.

But if you posthole on Gulf of Slides trail you will get crap from every skier and boarder you encounter, some will be very loud. They will be in the right and no one there will defend you. Heck, I saw postholes on a good chunk of the Sherby this weekend, and there's absolutely no need for that. Had I encountered them I would have told them in no uncertain terms that they needed to go over to the Tuckerman trail if they were going to walk. Those are ski trails and should be treated as such.

 

[leaf]

But if you posthole on Gulf of Slides trail you will get crap from every skier and boarder you encounter, some will be very loud. They will be in the right and no one there will defend you. Heck, I saw postholes on a good chunk of the Sherby this weekend, and there's absolutely no need for that. Had I encountered them I would have told them in no uncertain terms that they needed to go over to the Tuckerman trail if they were going to walk. Those are ski trails and should be treated as such.

yeah, i agree on that. no reason to walk down the sherb. and i agree with wu. all the trails in the whites are tourist trails. they are so accessible. i stay off 'em in winter unless i need to get into huntington if i wanna climb there. i'm usually in gullies or slides. show me a snowshoe track up shoestring or landslide gullies on mt. webster and i'll show you someone who doesn't know how to climb. the end result? i have to sharpen my ice tools once a week and haven't worn snowshoes yet this winter! woohoooo!

 

[Nif]

The Sherbie and GOS are marked as ski trails. Tucks gets you up and down from HoJo's if you want to walk. For the GOS, iwalk on the side of the trail, if you want to walk up in boots. In the backcountry, don't post hole the skin track on an area where people yo-yo. If you want to walk, again stay to the side. That's just general backcountry ski ethic and the nice thing to do keep peace and harmony. Most non-skiers and a good population of snowboarders don't realize that's a general guide line for not pissing off the other skiers. I've explained it nicely to a few people who have been trashing my skin track, but in the end, if they choose to do so, I'm just going to have to deal and grumble silently, I don't own the place. I simply share it and hope to not create access issues.

On trails that get multi-use to each their own. It's open to everyone and we all must play well together.

As for skiers coming down hiking trails, well a good skier would realize they need to be in control and are ready to encounter others and act accordinlgy. Most will not be running it like the Hahnenkamm. Behavior like that gets things closed to skiers.

 

[dr_wu002]

This from a guy who wore running shoes up Washington this weekend.

But if you posthole on Gulf of Slides trail you will get crap from every skier and boarder you encounter, some will be very loud. They will be in the right and no one there will defend you. Heck, I saw postholes on a good chunk of the Sherby this weekend, and there's absolutely no need for that. Had I encountered them I would have told them in no uncertain terms that they needed to go over to the Tuckerman trail if they were going to walk. Those are ski trails and should be treated as such.

I agree... no need at all to post hole ski trails.

FWIW I'll wear snowshoes over crampons or microspikes any day. I like wearing them. And they worked well with my running shoes except when they and my trail runners popped off in a spruce trap over the weekend. Boot sucking spruce trap....

-Dr. Wu