Limit of People on Summit

[SherpaTom]

I was advised after being involved in the FOT48 that there is a National Forest or Leave No Trace rule that there should be no more than 10 people on a summit at once. I cannot find this on any website. Does anyone have any insight on this?

 

[bryan]

wilderness regulations limit group size (in wilderness areas) to 10 people. don't know of a "summit" limit per say.

bryan

 

[hikerfast]

hmm...i always see more than 10 people in the visitor center on top of mt washington...

 

[Chip]

I think that relates to someone's "Group Rules" for camping and or hiking. You're not supposed to have an organized group larger than 10. If 3 groups of 5 converge on a summit, such is luck.

Oh...What bryan said !

 

[Tom Rankin]

hmm...i always see more than 10 people in the visitor center on top of mt washington...

I've seen WAY more than 10 people on MANY of the 48. And what do you do if 3 groups of 8 arrive from 3 different directions?

 

[Scotzman]

I've seen WAY more than 10 people on MANY of the 48. And what do you do if 3 groups of 8 arrive from 3 different directions?

Have check-in stations on each of the trails just below the summit and have people queue up to summit; you can't move on till someone else comes down. Hope no one has a long lunch on top!

 

[David Metsky]

As others have said, there are Wilderness Area regulations about group size, but they only relate to an organized trip. If you and 10 friends want to hike in a Wilderness Area you must divide in two and keep at least a mile apart. Hiking in from different directions to arrive on the summit together isn't allowed if the summit is in the Wilderness Area. It doesn't matter if the trip is commercial or just a bunch of folks celebrating someone's 48th.

Rangers might night be there to find you, but I can attest to the fact that sometimes they are.

 

[TCD]

Maybe someone should develop an LNT cell phone app that communicates between groups and times their ascents to avoid the dreaded mullti group summit...oh that's right cell phones are bad too...

 

[Raymond]

There were a lot of Boy Scouts atop North Tripyramid last September 11th, but I didn’t count them.

 

[Stash]

There were a lot of Boy Scouts atop North Tripyramid last September 11th, but I didn’t count them.

But if they're small can you have more?

 

[Guthook]

The Green Mountain Club asks that groups limit their size to 10 for any backpacking trips. I can't remember the ADK's group size limit. In the GMC's case, they're just pushing a Green Mountain National Forest rule that otherwise goes unenforced.

I think AMC has a similar rule, but I'm reminded of a time when I was coming down from Madison Hut and saw a single group of over fifty people going up for a night there. It was raining, so I was focused on my feet rather than the trail ahead, and they saw me first. Before I could say anything, their group leader called back to the group to let me pass. Fifty people stepped off the trail and into the bushes on the side. Good manners, but I would have much rather stepped off the trail myself to let them pass and only had one person trampling the undergrowth and soil on the edge of the trail, rather than fifty.

Made me wonder-- the people at AMC's reservations center must know about the group size limit, but when a group of fifty is about to pay for a night at a hut, do the dollar signs in their eyes make them forget to mention it? Or, like I've seen on the LT, is it just impossible to convince people to split the group up a bit?

 

[RollingRock]

Someone I know told me they were going up Carter Dome recently [maybe three weeks ago?] and ran into over 40 people as part of an AMC trip all trying to summit. A group that large was a bit slower and they were not cooperative in letting them pass. They eventually turned around.

I was actually surprised to learn the AMC is OK with such large groups.

I think generally its just being courteous and considerate to other hikers [besides LNT] to keep organized groups small. If they get too big, they can break up and hike up another nearby mountain.

 

[SherpaTom]

Limit

This is all that I have heard but never read it anywhere. Does anyone have a link with the rule form the Wilderness Regulations, Forest Regulation or any other?

Thanks

 

[bobandgeri]

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/white_mountain/recreation/wilderness/

Wilderness Regulations

Wilderness has special regulations intended to keep thse areas wild and to reduce human impact. The following apply in all WMNF designated Wilderness:

•No mechanized equipment or mechanical transport (including bicycles, carts, and wagons. Wheelchairs are allowed.)
•Hiking and camping group size must be limited to 10 people or less.
•Geocaching is prohibited.

 

[MadRiver]

There were a lot of Boy Scouts atop North Tripyramid last September 11th, but I didn’t count them.

I hiked by them on the way out. LNT wasn’t exactly on their agenda.

 

[Craig]

I was actually surprised to learn the AMC is OK with such large groups.

This issue comes up from time to time here.

Although I doubt AMC would disregard wilderness regulations during group trips, it seems they may disregard LNT principals with respect to group sizes in non-wilderness areas.

I suspect liability issues may make spitting a very large group impractical.

 

[bobandgeri]

What's the saying about people that live in glass houses? We have groups on VFTT that take over a hut for weekend, and meet at a common time to hike up to the hut.

Of course there are exceptions, but I believe the AMC usualy does keep their group hikes down in size and the leaders are at least trained in LNT. Of a much greater concern should be the Meetup groups that have hikes with limits of 20, sometimes 40 people.

 

[Craig]

Of course the difference between the AMC and everyone else is:

The AMC markets its self as a leader in the outdoor recreation industry in New England.
They should be a shining example of the latest thinking in outdoor ethics. An organization of their caliper should expect to be held to a higher standard than meetup groups or anyone else.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not bashing AMC, I’m just suggesting they should lead by example.

 

[David Metsky]

As has been mentioned here before, the AMC isn't a monolithic organization. Nearly all the trips are run by semi-autonomous activity committees inside regional chapters with little or no oversight by the AMC corporate offices. There are some hard and fast rules (you can't violate Wilderness Regs) and some required by insurance (all leaders are certified by the committees using agreed upon requirements) but the rest is all advisory, such as LNT.

Personally, I won't lead an AMC trip that has more than 12 total, and in winter even fewer. But all committees have larger trips with multiple leaders, such as hut trips or instructional trips where we put a lot of people in a single facility. There is lots of educational opportunities for leaders of all types, but it's hard to police when the organization has 1000's of leaders.

 

[RollingRock]

Of course the difference between the AMC and everyone else is:

The AMC markets its self as a leader in the outdoor recreation industry in New England.
They should be a shining example of the latest thinking in outdoor ethics. An organization of their caliper should expect to be held to a higher standard than meetup groups or anyone else.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not bashing AMC, I’m just suggesting they should lead by example.

I agree. For example, the Green Mountain Club takes this very seriously; including limiting your hiking in spring to not damage muddy trails.