List rules?

[DougPaul]

Gris, do you use backcountry skis or regular alpine? I can't hike in my ski boots or ski in my winter plastics, so I'll be carrying a pretty heavy load. Oh well, as long as I don't try to keep up with anyone!

Try AT gear?

You should be able to walk in some models of BC (particularly 3-pin) and Tele boots.

Doug

 

[RoySwkr]

I did Tecumseh last October 30th just after the snow storm(the biggest of the winter!) and skied down. The skis kept hitting overhanging trees and dumped snow down my back on the way up, but the ride down was deffinitely worth it.

Sorry, but by the official rules you can't count it because skis are allowed only in winter
"In winter skis and snowshoes are both allowed."

I once sent in some suggested verbiage for rules but for some reason the 4k committee is no more interested in clarifying the rules than they are in resolving the Owls Head situation.

I believe Gene Daniell was OK with sleds because you stayed in ground contact.

 

[Mad Townie]

Try AT gear? Doug

OK, sure. For anyone who wants to give some away, I wear a size 10 boot.

I feel some responsibility to my family to draw the gear line somewhere--that's why my XC skis are 29 years old--but my plastic mountaineering boots are pretty new!

 

[SherpaKroto]

I certainly count Katahdin and Hamlin as winter ascents, though I did not ride my sled: I skied about 3/4 of the way down from Chimney Pond (yikes!). I also count Zealand even though I rode my sled for short distances on the road, sticking all the way in the soft, sitcky snow, and completely dehydrated (ask cantdog and MichaelJ about that little trek!). Do I feel that I cheated? No way. Everything that I've used to assist me on winter climbs were either carried or towed up by me. I think that is the distinction.

BTW, el-bagr should know about skiing the 48: he skied all of them

 

[Quietman]

Sorry, but by the official rules you can't count it because skis are allowed only in winter
"In winter skis and snowshoes are both allowed."

Darn, I forgot to look at the calendar, sure looked like freeking winter to me!

I have 15 of the 48 left, and may or may not finish. I like great views, nice streams, and good weather. If they happen to be on a 4K peak, great. If not, oh well.

 

[Eric Savage]

I once sent in some suggested verbiage for rules but for some reason the 4k committee is no more interested in clarifying the rules than they are in resolving the Owls Head situation.

We are still working on a meeting with the Forest Service. The delay has been on their end (the person I contacted lost track of my email for a while). I have recently reestablished contact and we hope to have a meeting sometime in October.

As for the rules, I still have your email and do plan to work on the wording but unfortunately my job is keeping me far too busy lately. I don't know that we can ever iron out all of the possible questions without getting into the "excruciating technicalities" that Gene was always trying to avoid but we'll do our best and I'm open to suggestions even if I can't respond to them as quickly as I'd like.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

As for the rules, I still have your email and do plan to work on the wording but unfortunately my job is keeping me far too busy lately. I don't know that we can ever iron out all of the possible questions without getting into the "excruciating technicalities" that Gene was always trying to avoid but we'll do our best and I'm open to suggestions even if I can't respond to them as quickly as I'd like.

Please don't cut things too fine, Eric. Not all the rules your committe makes have merit.

The recent rule change regarding recognizing achievements of dogs in winter was paternalistic at best. I know Gene's views on dogs and winter hiking, but using his logic the one person who could claim a peak would be the one who broke trail, so ...

Personally, while I respect Roy's desire for clarification, please add/adjust the 'rules' only with great deliberation.

Having said that, adjusting the location of a peak is small potatoes IMHO. If a point 100 yards to the north is a foot higher, then update the 'rules' to reflect that and grandfather anyone who's climbed the peak prior to the rule change as in the past. That's consistent with past practices. Just don't spring any new exclusions upon the hiking community and its companions under the pretext of 'knowing what's best' for their health and welfare.

To quote a speaker I heard recently "We're idiot-proofing our (the US) culture into sheer stupidity".

 

[Mad Townie]

Just like Kevin said.

My original question was looking more for a general idea than for hair splitting technicality--I do enough of those at work!

 

[jmegillon149]

This may vary from club to club, but most clubs allow skiing both up and down. Although this is normally done on XC skis, I do not see anything that would preclude downhill skis. You probably need to finish (either on ski or foot) at a trailhead. From Four Thousand Footer Club FAQ.

The basic rule is very simple: You must climb (on foot!) to and from the summit of each peak on the list. In winter skis and snowshoes are both allowed.

For peaks with trails starting at maintained roads the rule is simple: Drive to the trailhead then walk ...

I don't know if the slippery slope argument extends to toboggans and sleds. ​

as far as I know, you don't have to start and end at a trailhead, as bushwhacking is allowed, I believe ski trails are as well, hope so since thats how I went down Tecumseh in both summer (walked the ski trails-better views!) and winter (skiid down, and rode the lifts for the rest of the day)

Sleds definately aren't allowed. The other question people have had is if you can snowmobile down a closed road in winter and hike from the trailhead, I do not know the answer for this.​

 

[David Metsky]

Sleds definately aren't allowed. The other question people have had is if you can snowmobile down a closed road in winter and hike from the trailhead, I do not know the answer for this.

For the Whites, the answer is no, you cannot do this.

-davve-

 

[Eric Savage]

Rules

Please don't cut things too fine, Eric.
Personally, while I respect Roy's desire for clarification, please add/adjust the 'rules' only with great deliberation.

This is exactly my intention. I'm not looking to add unnecessary layers of detail or additional rules. I just want to make sure that what is written is reasonably clear and that any widely held misconceptions/questions are addressed.

Having said that, adjusting the location of a peak is small potatoes IMHO. If a point 100 yards to the north is a foot higher, then update the 'rules' to reflect that and grandfather anyone who's climbed the peak prior to the rule change as in the past.

The 'rule' on Owl's Head is not likely to change until/unless a reasonable herd path to the new summit develops and is mentioned in the guidebook. The White Mountain Fours are different from the New England Hundred in that we don't expect people to go off trail looking for the absolute highest rock/root on the peak. We do expect that people will find the true summit of peaks like Whiteface and Passaconaway that are on a trail (and these are mentioned in the guidebook) but there are several other summits where it's probably just as well that people aren't trampling around in the bushes to get to that one rock that is few inches above the place where the cairn is sitting (and then there's the argument about highest natural point, e.g. Carrigain).
And yes, we will grandfather previous ascents.

The other question people have had is if you can snowmobile down a closed road in winter and hike from the trailhead, I do not know the answer for this.

Snowmobiling on closed roads is specifically against the rules (it might not even be legal in some cases). This is one of those things that I need to clarify on the FAQ page; right now the answer is hiding in the question about mountain bikes.

 

[una_dogger]

So for a winter peak, if the road is closed, and you park your car at the gate, can you ride a mountain bike from the gate to the trailhead (register/kiosk), lock your bike to a tree, hike up and down, and then ride your bike back to the gate? Does THAT count?

I'm being serious here!

edited to say, I think I found my answer in the rules. My interpretation is that it is OK to ride a mountain bike on a forest service road but no further.

 

[poison ivy]

edited to say, I think I found my answer in the rules. My interpretation is that it is OK to ride a mountain bike on a forest service road but no further.

Not in winter... in winter your hike has to start at the point you can drive to on that day. So you could ride your bike to a gated road but no further... because on that day a car could not drive down the road.

At least that's the way I understand it.
- Ivy

 

[RoySwkr]

edited to say, I think I found my answer in the rules. My interpretation is that it is OK to ride a mountain bike on a forest service road but no further.

That is specifically NOT the rule as interpreted by Gene Daniell and Eric Savage, you must start from where you can drive to that day

If you do a search on Find all posts by Eric Savage, you will find that he says just that

I'm not sure why I'm still surprised that the Four Thousand Footer Committee devotes all its energies to signing certificates and holding an annual meeting, and can't find time to clarify the rules or determine the summit of Owls Head

 

[MichaelJ]

I also count Zealand even though I rode my sled for short distances on the road, sticking all the way in the soft, sitcky snow, and completely dehydrated (ask cantdog and MichaelJ about that little trek!).

Don't drag me into this one!

As far as I'm concerned, it's about the spirit of the rules and the quest. If you feel you have to split hairs to count the peak, you aren't playing the list game right.

 

[dug]

I guess I feel we should all be so fortunate enough that everything else in our lives are so nailed up and perfect that we have resulted to quibbling over whether a peak "counts" if you rode a bike on a road or not.