Lost hiker benighted on Saturday night

[Will]

Your response to me has the tone of a rebuttal, but I don't see the need since I was responding to your original post in what I thought was pretty much agreement.

By no means can calling the efforts of the rangers "yeomanlike" in this case, be interpreted to disparage those efforts.

Or, as I said, "Nothing you or I or anyone else has said diminishes that." I believe we're saying the same thing.

I suggest we save the characterization of search missions as "heroic" for those circumstances in which exceptional hazard and risk, and/or extraordinary human effort are called for to attempt and/or complete the task.

Or, as I said, "Maybe heroic, depends on what they encountered, what they went through." I believe we're saying the same thing.

Then he was not rescued, was he?

Or, as I said, "What they did _was_ a rescue mission, from their point of view." While we're looking at this from the different perspectives, I don't think we disagree.

 

[Will]

I don't think anyone's trying to [diminish]

OK I think I'm saying something badly, since two of you have misunderstood and the burden in miscommunication is on the speaker rather than the listener. I said "Nothing you or I or anyone else has said diminishes that."

But I don't know how to say it any clearer. What they did was good. We're all saying that. I'm not diminishing it, and nobody else is either. Or trying to diminish.

The ONLY difference in what I'm presenting from the other posts, is my view that we seem to have had two separate activities: 1. a guy who took a walk that wound up longer than he expected and during which he experienced and overcame some difficulties; 2. a praiseworthy rescue mission which was thankfully un-needed.

I keep those separate because the only argument I'm going to have with ANYBODY is if the State tries to put these two together in a package and bill the guy who took a long walk.

Otherwise I'm not arguing with anybody here. I'm saying ditto, except that I don't ever say that.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Before someone attempts to canonize the F&G (who after all, were doing what's in their written job description) - does anyone know how they found this guy?

Did they break their own trail? Or follow his tracks?

 

[Billy]

Hey Grumpy:
Swish...all net...as usual

 

[Neil]

kennethw wrote:
he25fan - you are obviously a couch potato with no experience hiking the Whites. The kid (an Eagle Scout by the way) from Halifax did bite off more than he could chew. However, when he realized he had, he cut the hike in half. He was not "way off trail", but on one that would take him into the Great Gulf and back out to the highway. Unfortunately for him his way out was blocked by a flooded drainage and he had to hike all the way back up the next day where he was found - uninjured and in good health, but searchers. It's too bad idiots like you who couldn't spend a night out in July let alone winter keep poking at this kid. I suppose you would rather him stay home and play video games like most of his peers...

Job offering: one moderator with at least 5 years experience and thick skin. Experience at using the "ban user" button an asset. Benefits and on the job training included. Starting salary: 2 dollars per hour.

 

[bandana4me]

Rescue & the degradation of the English language?

It does not seem like a stretch to use the term rescue to me.
The definition of rescue is:
–verb (used with object)
1. to free or deliver from confinement, violence, danger, or evil.
2. Law. to liberate or take by forcible or illegal means from lawful custody.
–noun
3. the act of rescuing.



Was he confined to stay overnight? Yes


Let’s look at confinement:
adjective
1. limited or restricted.
2. unable to leave a place because of illness, imprisonment, etc.
3. being in childbirth; being in parturition

Was he able to remove himself from the situation on Saturday night? No

Was the F&G called and informed that Kevin was missing and did not return from the hike? Yes

Let’s face reality the F&G is going to start charging people for rescues plain and simple. I know it is not a popular decision but the line is being drawn in the sand. If this keeps hikers from the state of N.H. then so be it. The trails are too crowded as it.

 

[Will]

Let’s face reality the F&G is going to start charging people for rescues plain and simple. I know it is not a popular decision but the line is being drawn in the sand. If this keeps hikers from the state of N.H. then so be it. The trails are too crowded as it.

I'd like to see a voluntary "no-rescue list" you could call up and put your name on; like the do-not-call list for telephone spammers. You put your name on the list, you're on your own.

If unpaid volunteers (not including useless-in-the-Whites helicopters) choose to seek to find you, fine. Otherwise, you get to traffic or you're dead.

A lot of people don't realize this, but you're dead anyway, sooner or later. I love the life I've had the privilege of living, and would love to keep it going, but I don't need people risking their lives for mine in the backcountry, for the purpose of State revenues.

 

[bandana4me]

Will, excatly my point. I wrote this in a previous thread about rescuses:

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?p=265573#post265573

 

[Stash]

Why all hype about "they're gonna charge him"? Yes, there's a big story about the kid last hear and the $25K bill. As I understand a deal is set and the case is closed. In this case the F&G site has the following statement:

Lt. Todd Bogardus of NH Fish and Game stated that although McDonald had planned an aggressive itinerary in the backcountry on trails that are less utilized and maintained, he did properly preplan and was equipped with skills and gear to spend the evening should the need occur during his trek. McDonald was able to make a fire to keep himself and his dog comfortable in the frigid temperatures.

I don't see anything about charging.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Why all hype about "they're gonna charge him"?

One of the three reasons given for charging Mason was the "aggressive itinerary". This is another one of those judgment calls by A. Reasonable Person, many of whose relatives wouldn't walk to their mailbox in winter, much less 10, 20 or more miles in the WMNF in winter.

It's pretty clear they don't think he was negligent.

Tim

p.s. My kids rescued me from the confinement of my nice warm bed this morning. I hope I am properly prepared to walk them 150 yards to the bus stop in 10 minutes.

 

[Maddy]

I don't see anything about charging.

The F&G write up is a good one. I doubt he will be charged.

Having a "don't rescue me list" is a great idea when one is sitting in a warm house, with lots of food in the cupboards, and a fine selection of clothing in the closet. And let's not forget a working phone to call 911 several feet away.

I think one might be very sorry they placed their name on a "no rescue list" if they suddenly found themselves lost, injured, starving, freezing to death, or very sick in the mountains.

I think any of us, myself included, who have been in a life threatening situation could speak to that. It's might scary and not a whole lot of fun.

In a sense, there is a "no rescue list" if you really wanted to do that. Just disappear and don't tell anyone where you are going.

I recall reading in one article that when Scott saw his rescuers, he said something like "I am so happy to see you guys!" Sounded to me like he'd had about enough fun and frolick on his adventure.There is a great summary of Scott's SAR in Appalachia this month.

I agree with Bandanna4me....charging for rescues is here to stay and I suspect it won't be long before other states do the same. Baxter has loosened it's winter restrictions. I think if that group has to start risking life and limb to save negligent or reckless hikers, they will be less than pleased. Enter....the fine! $$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[smitty77]

I think one might be very sorry they placed their name on a "no rescue list" if they suddenly found themselves lost, injured, starving, freezing to death, or very sick in the mountains.

I agree with Maddy on this one. It's all well and good to say you'd rather fend for yourself, and as long as I have the ability to walk on my own two feet I would hate to be the subject of a search if I was delayed in my return. But I would feel very thankful someone is looking for me after blowing out a knee due to hooking a snowshoe on something or landing awkwardly in a fall and breaking my leg. You don't need to be lost to be rescued.

I was involved in a search & rescue operation here in Mass that ended up being a hoax, but for three hours we searched in freezing temperatures for a vehicle upside down in a river somewhere in 5 square miles of woods roads and abandoned gravel pits at 11:30 at night. There wasn't even a victim in this case, but we sure searched like someone was dying.

 

[Waumbek]

I think one might be very sorry they placed their name on a "no rescue list" if they suddenly found themselves lost, injured, starving, freezing to death, or very sick in the mountains.

Not a perfect analogy by any stretch, but if you know an M.D. personally, ask him or her if more than one patient hasn't rethought their "DNR" order when push came to shove.

 

[The Hikers]

I can tell you that my "couch potato" friends think we are crazy for going up any mountain, while I know they are probably in more danger on their morning drive.
Supposing the authorities rated our trips out in these snowstorms with our vehicles against the weather forecaster's advise, and charged us for our "rescues"?


What a world

 

[Maddy]

Not a perfect analogy by any stretch, but if you know an M.D. personally, ask him or her if more than one patient hasn't rethought their "DNR" order when push came to shove.

You are right. I worked in critical care for many, many years and there is no doubt that this does happen.

 

[Maddy]

I can tell you that my "couch potato" friends think we are crazy for going up any mountain, while I know they are probably in more danger on their morning drive.
Supposing the authorities rated our trips out in these snowstorms with our vehicles against the weather forecaster's advise, and charged us for our "rescues"?


What a world

But we do pay. In fact I am about to fill out my form for the town ambulance. We can pay the $20 bucks per year and if need the service we don't get charged. Otherwise we pay the big bucks if your insurance does not pick up the tab.

Also if you have an accident and you are at fault, regardless of the weather, you will be charged by the police, pay a fine, and then pay a nice big surcharge for about ?7 years.

And then of course we pay taxes which pay for police and firepeople.

Another thing to consider is if you ski recklessly and kill someone, there are areas of the country now where you will be charged with manslaughter (or worse). This happened out West not to long ago.

It's the way of the world. You play-you pay!

 

[Tim Seaver]

The Banana Republic of New Hampshire Welcomes You

charging for rescues is here to stay and I suspect it won't be long before other states do the same.

The trend has actually been going in the other direction, with states reversing their stance on charging for rescues under public pressure. Colorado recently reversed their position after several incidents of people getting in serious trouble, and NOT calling for help because of fear of having to pay for the cost of their rescue - which put the rescue teams at further risk.

Only 8 states have the laws on the book to charge for rescue, and most of them rarely go after victims for cash. Here's why:

National search and rescue organizations insist just the possibility of being billed is dangerous policy. Hikers may delay calling for help while they think about the cost, and that could put them — and the mostly volunteer corps of rescuers — at greater risk.

Other states with laws allowing them to recoup costs rarely, if ever, enforce them, largely for that reason, the AP found.

Every national SAR organization is against charging for rescue. Every one. NPS and the Coast Guard as well (bogus calls for help are another matter, and you will get fined).

NH is the National Champ in shaking down hikers and lost people for cash, propped up by a Kangaroo Court-Like system:

..."any person determined by the department to have acted negligently in requiring a search and rescue response by the department shall be liable to the department for the reasonable cost of the department's expenses for such search and rescue response. The executive director shall bill the responsible person for such costs. Payment shall be made to the department within 30 days after the receipt of the bill

Pretty neat, eh? The same "department" which decides your guilt, is also the beneficiary of any cash that is the result of a guilty verdict! No pressure there, no sir. Somewhere, a 3rd world dictator is smiling.

Strange stuff coming from a state that depends heavily on tourism and spends millions promoting it.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Tim's post points out why charging for SAR is poor public policy. I frequent a number of BB's involved in west coast hiking, and have begun to see an occasional post referencing NH's policy of charging people. Over time, that will mean fewer non-resident visits to the NH Whites. Some may say "Good, it's too crowded anyway", but it will result in a net loss of tourist dollars.

 

[Waumbek]

This thread has morphed from the OP to the usual rants about NH, F&G, etc., and maybe it's time to re-center it. In this particular incident, which I believe b4me has correctly defined as "rescue," the hiker was deemed to have had an "aggressive" itinerary, but not deemed to be at fault for negligence because he was well prepared for this "aggressive" itinerary. Having an "aggressive" itinerary is not in itself proof of negligence or recklessness. The hiker himself wishes he had taken a sleeping bag but he had enough equipment (including MREs), knew how to take care of himself, and did. Two teams went out to look for him because, essentially, he asked for them to go look for him through the agency of his wife's call. F&G can hardly say, under the conditions of that night, forget it, he'll be fine. Imagine the rants and raves that would produce on this BB. It would be like 9-1-1saying, don't worry about those chest pains, you'll be fine. One F&G team was on snowmobile, one on foot. All ended well. I really don't know what all the fuss and fuming is about on this one. It really is not a pretext for taking off into the stratosphere about pay for rescue.

 

[Craig]

This thread has morphed from the OP to the usual rants about NH, F&G, etc., ....

I agree, it seems as though everyone is on edge after the scout got porked.

I think the 25K probably replenished the coffers for 3-6 months as long as some dummy doesn’t need air support for 2 or 3 days.

Best to get out there and screw up before the well runs dry again though.