Lots of Rescues - Taking Stock

[Andrew]

Volunteer SAR does benefit from how people have been charged in the past. F&G first presents the option of making a "donation" to the NH Outdoor Council fund, before presenting a ticket or summons.

Many of our best volunteer groups have benefitted greatly from equipment purchased by grants from this fund. Things like 2-way radios, crampons, titanium litters & litter wheels.

 

[amstony]

Not this someone.
Most of those activities' emergencies are covered by car, boat and medical insurance, with their costs and deductibles. If I'm a big boater, I can also choose to purchase insurance that covers the cost of a tow, or I can pay for that tow per occurance. What I can't expect is that the Coast Guard or F&G Officer will tow me in because they already exist and are funded with my tax dollars.

Beg to differ- suffer a significant injury while in the woods, go to the hospital, and expect a form to arrive in your mailbox shortly thereafter asking you where it happened, and wanting a full explanation, as it did to me. Expect the form to say you could be liable for paying for the cost if not on a "maintained trail". Better be able to prove it was a maintained trail, like I had to. And this is from one of the best rated health insurance companies in the country. Ask the claim examiner if this is for real, and he/she will say, yes it is, and you could be liable for paying.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Beg to differ- suffer a significant injury while in the woods, go to the hospital, and expect a form to arrive in your mailbox shortly thereafter asking you where it happened, and wanting a full explanation, as it did to me. Expect the form to say you could be liable for paying for the cost if not on a "maintained trail". Better be able to prove it was a maintained trail, like I had to. And this is from one of the best rated health insurance companies in the country. Ask the claim examiner if this is for real, and he/she will say, yes it is, and you could be liable for paying.

Are you saying a health care coverage claim would be denied because you were "off trail"???

What if you are 200' in the woods taking care of business? Or camping per the regulations (which everyone follows, right ?)

I specifically asked on life insurance about cycling, racing (as long as it wasn't a car), hiking, and fishing 200 miles offshore and there wasn't any problem. For a company-sponsored health care plan, however, the full policy details are rarely shared, if even available.

Thanks,
Tim

 

[dug]

Beg to differ- suffer a significant injury while in the woods, go to the hospital, and expect a form to arrive in your mailbox shortly thereafter asking you where it happened, and wanting a full explanation, as it did to me. Expect the form to say you could be liable for paying for the cost if not on a "maintained trail". Better be able to prove it was a maintained trail, like I had to. And this is from one of the best rated health insurance companies in the country. Ask the claim examiner if this is for real, and he/she will say, yes it is, and you could be liable for paying.

What if you were following flagging?

 

[amstony]

What if you were following flagging?

if you bring a cell phone and map, you'll be fine

 

[Kevin Rooney]

if you bring a cell phone and map, you'll be fine

Just don't leave your pack in the col ...

Edit - on a more serious note: Before I retired I had a disability policy thru AFLAC which covered me in the event of accidental injury with income protection. One of the exclusions was mountaineering - injuries resulting from climbing which involved technical equipment - crampons/ice axe/ropes were excluded. So, if I did Rainier, I was covered up to Camp Muir. Beyond that ... on my own. Before AMESTONY's post I wasn't aware the health insurance policies might exclude coverage for cost of medical care, but am not surprised they exist.

 

[DougPaul]

Beg to differ- suffer a significant injury while in the woods, go to the hospital, and expect a form to arrive in your mailbox shortly thereafter asking you where it happened, and wanting a full explanation, as it did to me. Expect the form to say you could be liable for paying for the cost if not on a "maintained trail". Better be able to prove it was a maintained trail, like I had to. And this is from one of the best rated health insurance companies in the country. Ask the claim examiner if this is for real, and he/she will say, yes it is, and you could be liable for paying.

FWIW, I had no questions from my health insurance company about the cause of my injury. (I did tell various people about the general nature of the accident so they might have gotten the basic info, but I don't recall filling out any explicit forms on the topic.)

So it probably depends on the company.

Doug

 

[Paradox]

So it probably depends on the company.

...and the insurance company's current cash flow situation. Big benefit to the insurance company to force you to shuffle some papers and delay payment by a few months.

 

[ALGonquin Bob]

Someone recently told me that I carry too much stuff. I don't think so, as I often hike solo. My wife just says, "what would I do with your car?"...

 

[Remix]

FYI- AFLAC will not pay disability benefits if you are injured while ice climbing...it may have even said mountaineering. Of course, this is disclosed in writing and by ethical agents before you start paying.

The agent said injuries sustained in the course of normal hiking would be covered, but I guess I should double-check the terms.

Edit-- oops double post on Kevin

 

[forestgnome]

Okayyyy, then why not add a bit more about possible rescue charges on trailhead signs, and even repeat again on signs at tree line?

Okayyyyyy. As I stated, the rescue call often comes from family/freinds after a hiker fails the show. How does signage at the trailhead inform family/freinds in Boston about the law?

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Okayyyyyy. As I stated, the rescue often comes from family/freinds after a hiker fails the show. How does signage at the trailhead inform family/freinds in Boston about the law?

If you're on the phone with the F&G, they can tell you, in conjunction with "This call is being recorded", "You may be charged for costs related to search and rescue operations, up to $10,000."

Tim

 

[Mike P.]

So if bushwhacking, drag your busted butt to the nearest trail.

I'm thinking that most health insurers don't know the differnce between hiking & general mountaineering. I was winter hiking not mountaineering

(note, your health insurance claim is not the place to brag about your outdoor exploits, that's what VFTT if for! just like you don't tell the trooper he should have seen how fast you were going ten miles ago!)

DP, are you referring to your XC injury? while more extreme than the Bretton Woods trails, if your were brief on the form & said you were X-C on Livermore Road, I think it would fly under the radar.

 

[--M.]

Just don't leave your pack in the col ...

Edit - on a more serious note: Before I retired I had a disability policy thru AFLAC which covered me in the event of accidental injury with income protection. One of the exclusions was mountaineering - injuries resulting from climbing which involved technical equipment - crampons/ice axe/ropes were excluded. So, if I did Rainier, I was covered up to Camp Muir. Beyond that ... on my own. Before AMESTONY's post I wasn't aware the health insurance policies might exclude coverage for cost of medical care, but am not surprised they exist.

This is good.

As someone who worked with a lot of insurance professionals, I would add this little one of life's secrets: insurance companies make money by denying claims. You think they're making money by charging premiums, but in fact they're only borrowing it. The profit comes when the premiums aren't degraded by claims. Therefore, it's helpful from the consumer's point of view to know, going in, that they'll be looking for the excuse just as much as you'll be looking for them to pay. For a good explication of this, see the classic "Double Indemnity."

And you thought Fred MacMurray's big gig was "My Three Sons."

As for being rescued "unnecessarily," it really depends on the person at home making the phone call. I'm wondering if maybe one should add a few hours to the wait time (kind of like a deductible). I thought there was a qualitative difference between the miscommunication in the 'Daks on the ninth (02/09/08, Allen, was it?) and the dire situations in the Whites.

 

[dug]

So if bushwhacking, drag your busted butt to the nearest trail.

I'm thinking that most health insurers don't know the differnce between hiking & general mountaineering. I was winter hiking not mountaineering

(note, your health insurance claim is not the place to brag about your outdoor exploits, that's what VFTT if for! just like you don't tell the trooper he should have seen how fast you were going ten miles ago!)

DP, are you referring to your XC injury? while more extreme than the Bretton Woods trails, if your were brief on the form & said you were X-C on Livermore Road, I think it would fly under the radar.

Thread Drift:

I seriously said that to a cop once. He laughed out loud and gave me only a warning

 

[DougPaul]

DP, are you referring to your XC injury? while more extreme than the Bretton Woods trails, if your were brief on the form & said you were X-C on Livermore Road, I think it would fly under the radar.

Yes. The location was upper Livermore Rd (now called the Livermore Trail), between the junction with the Flume Slider Trail and upper end of the switchback. It was a nice clear trail (except for one blowdown ), often skied from the Waterville XC system.

I didn't fill out any forms detailing the accident, but I did answer questions (info which may have found its way onto forms). And, of course, the evacuation crew saw the accident site and may have filled out forms.

Doug

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

Okayyyyyy. As I stated, the rescue call often comes from family/freinds after a hiker fails the show. How does signage at the trailhead inform family/freinds in Boston about the law?

My improved signage at tree line suggestion was in response to your third sentence about victims not knowing about rescue fees, as opposed to the family and friends of the victims calling in for a SAR. By guess is that SARs are called in about 50/50 by victims and family/friends in the cell phone era, which is supported by the half dozen or so events so far this winter.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

In addition to more treeline signage, there are a few places in the Whites which could use more/better markers in the terms of large cairns where you leave/re-enter the scrub. Some of been greatly improved over the past few years, notably the 100 yard stretch between treeline and the summit of Little Haystack, and Moosilauke heading to South Peak. There are other places which could use it as well. For example:

1) Crawford Path on Clinton/Pierce - This was brushed out recently, but brush grows back and this re-entry point is not obvious. At least one bad incident has happened here when a party overshot this point.

2) Valley Way - in late winter when the snows are deep (sometimes after astrological winter has ended) finding this re-entry point is tough, especially if you haven't ascended this way.

3) Edmands Path - Like #1, this has been brushed out, so it's not too bad, but ... I recall about 5 years ago three of us heading up the Crawford Path with the intent of making a loop down Edmands. But, even though one of my friends has a near-photographic memory when it comes to trails, on that day it eluded us and we decided to circumnavigate Eisenhower and went back via Crawford.

4) Bondcliff - Even though I've done this one several times in late winter and never had a problem finding the re-entry point (the short, near-vertical rockface some have dubbed "The Step"), it's always struck me that it's a potential hazard. Having one large cairn, visible as you're working your way down that ridge, would confirm the trail.

5) Jewell Trail - this is a particularly tough one to spot in low light, little traffic, etc. I don't think people have given this one much thought because until recently that side of the mountain was - for all intents and purposes - closed to winter traffic. A similar point can be made on the other side, on the Ammo trail.

Of course, all bets are off if the visibility is so bad you can't see your shoelaces, but these locations come immediately to mind. There may be others.

Some might counter by the usual argument that if you can't find your way in the woods than you shouldn't be out there, but that ignores reality. People DO go out there, prepared or not, and s&#t happens, even to experienced people.

Edit - And back to dug's original post about coming clean - I confess certain omissions as well, like maps on some hikes. Some of the trails/peaks I've done in excess of 50 times, so whether I have a map in my pack isn't particularly important to me. Maybe I should be more careful.

 

[leaf]

5) Jewell Trail - this is a particularly tough one to spot in low light, little traffic, etc. I don't think people have given this one much thought because until recently that side of the mountain was - for all intents and purposes - closed to winter traffic. A similar point can be made on the other side, on the Ammo trail.

YES, ugh, this dumb trail. I lost it in only a few inches of snow in November. What a pain in the ass it is. I must admit I find a line of giant rock cairns somewhat "ruining my wilderness experience", but I suppose on the other hand it would have been nice to save time and ankle twisting by keeping on the trail. Just keep the piles to a minimum. The Bigelow lawn is more like Easter Island.

 

[carole]

In addition to more treeline signage, there are a few places in the Whites which could use more/better markers in the terms of large cairns where you leave/re-enter the scrub....
...these locations come immediately to mind. There may be others.

In the past I have seen Boott Spur Trail being difficult to find where it enters the trees.