Hey guys. While I am incredibly excited that it is summer and the lack or weight it allows one to carry considering that you do not have to bring snowshoes and heavy down jackets and such, but I am already thinking of next winter. So this past winter I really got into more of the alpine type climbing and trying to carry as little as possible. When I read these articles in mags like Alpine ## the people in the stories just amaze me as to how they get their climbs completed. Some of these guys go out for multiday climbs in subzero temps and carry as little as 40 lbs or less. So how crazy do you guys get when it comes to winter in the Prezi’s. I am thinking you can eliminate the need for a tent with a snowcave. Instead of bringing a sleeping bag, just hang out in your down clothing (I have a patagoina puffball jkt and Wild Things EP pants). The other thing is to just stop and rest when you need to. When you get tired or hungry stop for like 3-4 hours, take a capnap get some food and such. Anyone ever do anything like this?
LW Alpine style mountianeering
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bruno
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i go pretty light in the winter myself. foolish maybe, but fun. as long as i'm movin' i'm warm. but it does get pretty cold in the dead of winter at night, so unless you're on a 24 hour push, i don't think it's that great an idea to forgo at least a light sleepin' bag and bivvy sack in case you need to come to a complete halt. but again, if you're movin' fast, you're warm.
you're probably already familiar with it, but read mark twight's book "extreme alpinism". he's about as hardcore as you can get.
you're probably already familiar with it, but read mark twight's book "extreme alpinism". he's about as hardcore as you can get.
giggy
New member
love this topic
I assume your just starting out in winter and I am no expert, but have been doing it a few years and can only relate my best advice. I too tend to fall in the alpine quick ascents (white mountains NH) as day trips or short overnights - that is mostly what I do.
Your going to get diff opinions and I like to go light in winter as well - not sure light enough to leave a bag and tent and sleep in down coat - its gets pretty damn cold at night in winter. I can remember many times being warm and comfy all day and then back at camp - you get cold pretty fast and tent and bag are really nice to get into. By spitting weight - you should be able to get your packs well under 40 pounds. funny side note - I am trianing for rainier right now and 40 pounds doesn't seem that heavy any more!!
I never dug a cave before. I would rather carry the tent than spend time and energy sweating making the cave. From what I gether - it it tougher than it appears and can make you pretty wet and cold with sweat.
But I don't think there is anything wrong in going light and doing what your saying - maybe the first time you try - bring a tent and bag just in case - but try not to use it - see what happens - that way you don't get cuaght in bad situation. I would not want to be 3000-4000k up in the pressies at 5 or 6pm in winter finding out the snowcave ain't working and not having a back-up plan. that would not a fun night out.
just my 2 cents. have some fun and just use your common sense. -
I assume your just starting out in winter and I am no expert, but have been doing it a few years and can only relate my best advice. I too tend to fall in the alpine quick ascents (white mountains NH) as day trips or short overnights - that is mostly what I do.
Your going to get diff opinions and I like to go light in winter as well - not sure light enough to leave a bag and tent and sleep in down coat - its gets pretty damn cold at night in winter. I can remember many times being warm and comfy all day and then back at camp - you get cold pretty fast and tent and bag are really nice to get into. By spitting weight - you should be able to get your packs well under 40 pounds. funny side note - I am trianing for rainier right now and 40 pounds doesn't seem that heavy any more!!
I never dug a cave before. I would rather carry the tent than spend time and energy sweating making the cave. From what I gether - it it tougher than it appears and can make you pretty wet and cold with sweat.
But I don't think there is anything wrong in going light and doing what your saying - maybe the first time you try - bring a tent and bag just in case - but try not to use it - see what happens - that way you don't get cuaght in bad situation. I would not want to be 3000-4000k up in the pressies at 5 or 6pm in winter finding out the snowcave ain't working and not having a back-up plan. that would not a fun night out.
just my 2 cents. have some fun and just use your common sense. -
Mike P.
Well-known member
Depending on your experience & actual prior use of snowcaves it's possible or it's a planned suicide. Twight & Company are not your average guys with average skills, they are elite climbers with years of experience on the edge, Twight, Wickwire, Visteurs, Anker, etc. have lost plenty of friends.
While R&I & Climbing make these places visually attractive the admission price makes it a place I don't want to play in personally
Carrying a pad? Stove, shovel is lighter than a tent but a tent does not require deep snow or the energy you would use to make a deep pile of snow.
A couple of nights a year weather in the whites is barely tolerable or even intolerable on temp alone & above treeline that is a few to several nights a year.
Having good wits, good skills & knowing when to cut & run would be more valuable than down suits, shovels or any other gear.
While R&I & Climbing make these places visually attractive the admission price makes it a place I don't want to play in personally
Carrying a pad? Stove, shovel is lighter than a tent but a tent does not require deep snow or the energy you would use to make a deep pile of snow.
A couple of nights a year weather in the whites is barely tolerable or even intolerable on temp alone & above treeline that is a few to several nights a year.
Having good wits, good skills & knowing when to cut & run would be more valuable than down suits, shovels or any other gear.
sierra
Well-known member
I do alot of soloing in the winter and have done some long alpine routes. I travel light, no sleeping bag but a decent supply of clothes. Heres my list if your interested. 1. gore-tex suit
2. gloves, liner gloves, expedition weight mitts (gore-tex)
3. full pile suit
4. Balacava (liner weight, heavy weight)
5. xtra hat
6. short sleeve cap. shirt, long sleeve cap. shirt.
7. heavy weight pile jacket wind proof liner.
8. xtra heavy socks in reserve.
9. pad, emergency blanket ( one of those plastic type)
10. 1 thermos, one water bottle.
11. no matches, ( noted because in alpine sits, fire is near impossible to start (imo).
12. note, while I carry fleece pants, 90% of the time, I wear mid weight capiline underwear under lycra tites for my legs, covering them with a shell when needed.
Thats the jist of it, as another poster noted, the top alpine climbers of today are in a class by themselves, I learn from them but never fail to see the difference between me and them, which is considerable. How thin of a margin you choose is up to you, but in 20 plus years Im still alive, Ive had only two forced bivis in the winter and while I wouldnt call them enjoyable, I lived and was fine the next morning.
2. gloves, liner gloves, expedition weight mitts (gore-tex)
3. full pile suit
4. Balacava (liner weight, heavy weight)
5. xtra hat
6. short sleeve cap. shirt, long sleeve cap. shirt.
7. heavy weight pile jacket wind proof liner.
8. xtra heavy socks in reserve.
9. pad, emergency blanket ( one of those plastic type)
10. 1 thermos, one water bottle.
11. no matches, ( noted because in alpine sits, fire is near impossible to start (imo).
12. note, while I carry fleece pants, 90% of the time, I wear mid weight capiline underwear under lycra tites for my legs, covering them with a shell when needed.
Thats the jist of it, as another poster noted, the top alpine climbers of today are in a class by themselves, I learn from them but never fail to see the difference between me and them, which is considerable. How thin of a margin you choose is up to you, but in 20 plus years Im still alive, Ive had only two forced bivis in the winter and while I wouldnt call them enjoyable, I lived and was fine the next morning.
woodstrider
New member
Going it light in winter
I 've done some stuff in the winter and I do find it hard to shave the pounds off. Alot of it depends on your ability to cope with the weather. As you gain experience this changes. I usually like to set up a base camp low down and then make day hikes to the summits, so I can get away with a rather heavy load.
Snow shelters can be very damp inside.
Plus, as others have pointed out- you need a "plan B", in case the snow shelter doesn't work out.
I don't like to **** around in the winter- the stakes are too high and I like to return home in one piece. I err on the side of caution.
I 've done some stuff in the winter and I do find it hard to shave the pounds off. Alot of it depends on your ability to cope with the weather. As you gain experience this changes. I usually like to set up a base camp low down and then make day hikes to the summits, so I can get away with a rather heavy load.
Snow shelters can be very damp inside.
Plus, as others have pointed out- you need a "plan B", in case the snow shelter doesn't work out.
I don't like to **** around in the winter- the stakes are too high and I like to return home in one piece. I err on the side of caution.
hikerbrian
Active member
Sierra, that's amazing. Is that list really for multi-day outings, or am I misunderstanding? No sleeping bag. No tent. Holy crap, I'm a wuss. Climbing into my sleeping bag with a hot Nalgene bottle is probably one of my most joyous occassions in life.
Do you really need to pick your weather windows carefully then? I've found it pretty difficult to sit around, even in my warm clothes, once the tempurature falls below maybe zero or five below. I honestly can't imagine getting a decent night's sleep in just my down clothes.
Do you really need to pick your weather windows carefully then? I've found it pretty difficult to sit around, even in my warm clothes, once the tempurature falls below maybe zero or five below. I honestly can't imagine getting a decent night's sleep in just my down clothes.
snowman
New member
It's funny what i hear a lot... things like "that's just crazy" without knowing who said it, their experience, etc.
Go light for a purpose, not just to say you go light.
A main reason for going light is for greater safety, not less.
Fitness. Fitness, to me, is the greatest safety measure one can adopt in this sport. The ability to travel under bad conditions for 20+ hours at a time allows these climbers the ability to leave "essentials" behind. What is 1 person's 3 day trip with tents, bags, etc is another persons day climb with a water bottle and some gu.
It's not something you just do, you go out a lot, learn, suffer, grow until you can refine your craft and get by with less. It's also not just spending more money to purchase and carry lighter versions of heavier gear.
Leave your comfort zone, have fun.
Go light for a purpose, not just to say you go light.
A main reason for going light is for greater safety, not less.
Fitness. Fitness, to me, is the greatest safety measure one can adopt in this sport. The ability to travel under bad conditions for 20+ hours at a time allows these climbers the ability to leave "essentials" behind. What is 1 person's 3 day trip with tents, bags, etc is another persons day climb with a water bottle and some gu.
It's not something you just do, you go out a lot, learn, suffer, grow until you can refine your craft and get by with less. It's also not just spending more money to purchase and carry lighter versions of heavier gear.
Leave your comfort zone, have fun.
If you've not already read it, Mark Twight's book, Extreme Alpinism, is decent.
Twight is something of an apostle for lightweight mountaineering. Some folks agree with his opinions. Others do not.
The book covers training, equipment and technique. He doesn't spend a lot of time on any one aspect of climbing, but his short blurbs on a myriad of topics provide useful information, even if you choose an approach that differs from his.
Twight is something of an apostle for lightweight mountaineering. Some folks agree with his opinions. Others do not.
The book covers training, equipment and technique. He doesn't spend a lot of time on any one aspect of climbing, but his short blurbs on a myriad of topics provide useful information, even if you choose an approach that differs from his.
TCD
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One thing to keep in mind, if no one's mentioned it, is that in the NE US mountains, it is often colder, and there is less snow, than in many other ranges. Planning on a snow cave is great somewhere like BC, where it's 15F and there's 10 feet of snow. Not so nice in the NE, where it's -15F and there's 6 inches of snow.
jfb
Active member
If the 40 lbs. pack weight does not include rope, crampons and ice axe (alpine climbers would either not bring snowshoes or would leave them at the base of the climb) then my normal winter pack would be about 40 lbs. That weight includes a 7 lb. pack, 8 lb. 2-person tent, 4 lb. sleeping bag, 2 lb. down jacket and 2.5 lb. Thermarest pad. For a serious climb, I could probably reduce the weight by about 7 or 8 lbs. by using a lighter pack and foam pad and sharing the tent weight.
For winter backpacking in the Presidentials, if your pack weighs more than 40 lbs., you should probably look at buying lighter weight gear rather than deciding what gear to leave behind.
For winter backpacking in the Presidentials, if your pack weighs more than 40 lbs., you should probably look at buying lighter weight gear rather than deciding what gear to leave behind.
Hardshell/softshell
So do you guys go at it with Hardshell or softshell in the midst of winter. I myself am a dedicated softshell user and have never had a poor result. Granted while I do carry a LW hardshell in my pack for emergencies, I have never had my sofshell (with a hood) wimp out in serious snow. In my experience I find that I always end up sweating with a hardshell on (even if I am chill as weird as that sounds). What do you guys find works for you for layer systems?
So do you guys go at it with Hardshell or softshell in the midst of winter. I myself am a dedicated softshell user and have never had a poor result. Granted while I do carry a LW hardshell in my pack for emergencies, I have never had my sofshell (with a hood) wimp out in serious snow. In my experience I find that I always end up sweating with a hardshell on (even if I am chill as weird as that sounds). What do you guys find works for you for layer systems?
jfb
Active member
I prefer softshells in winter. My layering system is a wool baselayer, wool sweater, fleece vest and uncoated polyester shell with hood. Bottoms are wool baselayer, fleece pants and uncoated polyester wind pants. On my hands, I wear wool/Thinsulate gloves or Primaloft mittens. For wearing around camp or as backup above treeline I carry Primaloft pants, down jacket and booties.
If temps are warm enough where it might rain, I'll bring Precip top and bottom in my pack.
If temps are warm enough where it might rain, I'll bring Precip top and bottom in my pack.
ADK4Life
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I like wearing a 3 layer Mountain Hardwear Backcountry Recon Shell, 3 layer Mountain Hardwear Windstopper tech jacket, long sleeve sweat wicking shirt or other layer underneath.
sierra
Well-known member
hikerbrian,
That is my list for single day routes only. For overnights, my list would include a decent bag and a small tent, stove, 1 pot. I will add, I focus on 1 day routes, even if that means many hours on the go, I deplore backpacking and only do it when time does not allow 1 day ascents. But as poster before me stated, many backpacking routes can be done in a day. There are 14ers out west that people pack in for, imo, there are not many that cant be done in a day if your fit and dont mind 20 hour days.
Note; I would never rely on a snow shelter, they take to much time, energy and alot of alpine snow is not condusive to building them, besides after a hard day, do want to stop and spend what could be hours, after a hard day to build one? I sure dont, My tiros 1 can be pitched in minutes and has withstood winds of 50+ miles per hour. I think the safety that your own shelter brings with you is worth the weight.
That is my list for single day routes only. For overnights, my list would include a decent bag and a small tent, stove, 1 pot. I will add, I focus on 1 day routes, even if that means many hours on the go, I deplore backpacking and only do it when time does not allow 1 day ascents. But as poster before me stated, many backpacking routes can be done in a day. There are 14ers out west that people pack in for, imo, there are not many that cant be done in a day if your fit and dont mind 20 hour days.
Note; I would never rely on a snow shelter, they take to much time, energy and alot of alpine snow is not condusive to building them, besides after a hard day, do want to stop and spend what could be hours, after a hard day to build one? I sure dont, My tiros 1 can be pitched in minutes and has withstood winds of 50+ miles per hour. I think the safety that your own shelter brings with you is worth the weight.
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