Moosehead Ski Area Proposal

[peakbagger]

https://bangordailynews.com/2021/01...er-proposes-75m-ski-resort-by-moosehead-lake/

Hope springs eternal on ski areas. With Weyerhaeuser, the successor to Plum Creek, electing not to proceed with the major recreational development in this region, the local economy has been looking for a savior after the last few didnt pan out. Its definitely not a day trip destination from anywhere except maybe central maine. It makes a drive to Saddleback or Sugarloaf look close by. The area does get a lot of winter snowmachine traffic.

 

[NHClimber]

Same drill as Balsams -- need it to be a destination, all-inclusive resort where people stay for extended periods in order to make the numbers work. And Moosehead is quite a haul, even by Balsams standards. Google says it will take you 3:40 to get there from Gorham. Add another hour if coming from Boston.

 

[DayTrip]

Same drill as Balsams -- need it to be a destination, all-inclusive resort where people stay for extended periods in order to make the numbers work. And Moosehead is quite a haul, even by Balsams standards. Google says it will take you 3:40 to get there from Gorham. Add another hour if coming from Boston.

I drive longer than that for day hikes....

 

[skiguy]

Hypothetically speaking this could attract a demographic that flies. Not sure of the size of the Greenville Airport but smaller more executive style Airports are seeing an increase of use during Covid. The local Airport here has been entertaining folks from well out of the area that have been coming in just for the day and for overnight visits. Just this past weekend I spoke with a couple whom had come in from Maryland with their kids for skiing via Fryeburg Airport. Even the folks without the financial means to have their own plane are chartering as those carriers are reducing pricing taking advantage of a market that wants to be in a more secure situation than the typical commercial carrier and can fly into smaller airports. Condos and second homes offer use by not only the primary owner but a wide market via Air B&B/VRBO. The exodus from urban areas into the country has been huge. Not to mention the hoards of folks telecommuting that will probably never go back to the office is fueling a Real Estate shortage. A mid to higher end type of resort is attractive to multi property owners not only from a use for themselves but also as an investment.

 

[Mike P.]

From my town, Greenville ME is five hours and 37 minutes. (That would be clear roads without snow according to the net. It also says my house to Bretton Woods is 3 hours and 46 minutes, maybe on my best day and the fastest single stop for gas and a bathroom, my best day to Lincoln was 3 hours 25 minutes so I'm thinking six hours for Greenville.)

While you maybe able to charter planes, why would I go to Greenville by plane (costs may be low now as people generally aren't flying as much) and bypass bigger mountains and closer destinations. Looking at hiking video's the view is similar to other Maine peaks with ski areas, green with large lakes. Will there be more or better restaurants and bars? The prominence is about 2000 feet but that's top to bottom, vertical was 1700 feet, not bad, however several others have more. (Sugarloaf, Whiteface (NY) Wildcat, Stowe, Killington)

If you are looking for a sizeable group to keep returning from Southern New England's population center, you need a reason to bypass the other locations. People fly to CO and UT because it's different than here. To ski terrain that looks like many of the others here, why would I travel that much further?

 

[peakbagger]

The Whites has the buzz these days, Dixville, Carrabasset, Rangeley and Greenville do not. I do not see that changing anytime soon.

 

[skiguy]

From my town, Greenville ME is five hours and 37 minutes. (That would be clear roads without snow according to the net. It also says my house to Bretton Woods is 3 hours and 46 minutes, maybe on my best day and the fastest single stop for gas and a bathroom, my best day to Lincoln was 3 hours 25 minutes so I'm thinking six hours for Greenville.)

While you maybe able to charter planes, why would I go to Greenville by plane (costs may be low now as people generally aren't flying as much) and bypass bigger mountains and closer destinations. Looking at hiking video's the view is similar to other Maine peaks with ski areas, green with large lakes. Will there be more or better restaurants and bars? The prominence is about 2000 feet but that's top to bottom, vertical was 1700 feet, not bad, however several others have more. (Sugarloaf, Whiteface (NY) Wildcat, Stowe, Killington)

If you are looking for a sizeable group to keep returning from Southern New England's population center, you need a reason to bypass the other locations. People fly to CO and UT because it's different than here. To ski terrain that looks like many of the others here, why would I travel that much further?

You don't own your own Lear?

 

[peakbagger]

One of the claims of the Balsams project was they had a nearby airport (actually 45 minutes away in Milan) with facilities for handling jets. The airport in Milan has a longer runway and facilities than other regional airports. Sunday River used to park their jet in Milan as Bethel was too short at 3800 feet long. Milan has a 5200 long runway, 100 feet wide, Greenville is 4200 75 ft wide and Fryeburg is 4200 75' wide Carrabasset is 2900 by 75. Private pilots like longer wider runways. One of the former Berlin mill owners had a Lear and another owner had a Falcon and both landed regularly in Milan.

 

[egilbe]

Hey! Carrabasset Valley has an airport

 

[NHClimber]

I drove past the Milan airport (Berlin Regional) Monday and they were plowing the runway with a vengeance. Getting ready already!

Btw, I think Greenville is even shorter -- 4000'.

 

[Andrew]

Snow train. Make the journey part of the destination.

 

[Mike P.]

Snow train. Make the journey part of the destination.

Well. if one business is in more dire straits than mid-size ski areas, it's passenger rail. It would be 100's of millions (I may be light in my estimate) to retrofit the existing East Coast line with true high speed rail, which is much faster than Acela.

If you can convince Disney or Universal or someone to build a theme for year round visits and have skiing as an add-on. (or a large water park with indoor and outdoor attractions but people with that kind of money to lend have more safe and lucrative places to deploy their cash.

 

[TEO]

The Whites has the buzz these days, Dixville, Carrabasset, Rangeley and Greenville do not. I do not see that changing anytime soon.

I haven't seen any specific models about how Northwestern Maine will be affected by global warming, but as southern ski areas either have shorter seasons and/or are forced to close altogether, I suspect that the more northern areas will see a rise in visitors. Torngats, here I come!

 

[peakbagger]

I haven't seen any specific models about how Northwestern Maine will be affected by global warming, but as southern ski areas either have shorter seasons and/or are forced to close altogether, I suspect that the more northern areas will see a rise in visitors. Torngats, here I come!

One of Les Otten's claims about the Balsams is that its on a different more reliable storm track than even the Whites and Central NH. His claim is its going to get more snow and hold it longer. I think I have heard the same claim for Jay, Saddleback Sugarloaf and no doubt Moosehead.

Of course in the early concept he was planning to run a long pipeline from the Androscoggin River in Errol, up and over Dixville Notch to the resort for to to bottom snow making. The problem, with the concept is that the Balsams drainage runs to the Connecticut River and therefore this could introduce cross contamination between riversheds. My guess is that concept is pushed way back in the plan if it still exists.

 

[egilbe]

As soon as NH and Southern Maine get as populated as the Boston Metro area, Greenville won't be that far away for the people living in those areas.

 

[Andrew]

Well. if one business is in more dire straits than mid-size ski areas, it's passenger rail. It would be 100's of millions (I may be light in my estimate) to retrofit the existing East Coast line with true high speed rail, which is much faster than Acela.

If you can convince Disney or Universal or someone to build a theme for year round visits and have skiing as an add-on. (or a large water park with indoor and outdoor attractions but people with that kind of money to lend have more safe and lucrative places to deploy their cash.

You are correct as far as commuter interest in most areas, but excursion train interest has been dramatically increasing over the past few years and are booked quickly and completely. Conway Scenic is offering a snow train to Attitash from N. Conway now; I know, more of an interesting quirk for a tourist to enjoy as opposed to efficient travel to a destination. Thinking more of a special with cars specifically designed to have features to cater to the specific journey and clientele.
Would take a huge investment risk on someone's part, but you can't always predict a hot trend. But think of the advantages for many: No white knuckled drive through traffic, snowstorms, kids agitated and having to find bathroom breaks. Cars specific to families maybe with some type of play space for kids. Cars for the adults or revelers where you could spend your time on your device, or drink latte's, dine. Depending what state your in, smoking cars. We have seen it many times before where old is new. I'm sure the fine folks of Bethlehem, NH 100 years ago never thought their grand hotels would stop being the ultimate destination, as well as 15 years ago any renewed interest and tourist development we are seeing today. Or for that matter 10 years ago that Moose Brook State Park would be a popular place to camp again. We're looking to go to Glacier some day, but would only consider doing it by train and would never go by any other means.

I was chatting with the Cog foreman on the phone the other day as he was telling me how busy they have been, we both thought it would be neat if standard trains ran to the Base Station again.

 

[peakbagger]

Sunday River made a go at ski trains from Portland and Lewiston when Les Otten owned it. The town put in a train station and a major development around it. It went from Portand to Bethel via the Saint Lawrence & Atlanitc (the original tourist train to the whites) The problem is the SLR was built before automobiles were as prevalent. There are lots of at grade crossings between Portland and Bethel which slowed down the ski trains and the tracks are maintained to freight standards which meant low speeds. Les tried hard to promote it and subsidized the tickets but my understanding from folks who tried it was it was real long day and lot quicker just driving up. It got a lot of train tourists, but it went away after a few years.

Dear old Don Provencher the eternal optimist in Gorham for train resurgence passed a few years ago and no one has taken up his torch. He would host various developers wanting to bring back trains every few years. Of course with the proposed Pods in Berlin why have a train? https://www.conwaydailysun.com/berl...cle_4b5977b0-bb31-11ea-9c85-935b504164cb.html

The former owner of Storyland bought the Flying Yankee streamliner that ran as the original Conway ski train at an auction and was supporting its restoration.When he passed the project slowly stalled. It has been shuttled around Lincoln for a few years and was supposed to get mounted on a short stretch of track in Lincoln last year for static display. The engine apparently is beyond repair. https://flyingyankee.org/

 

[NHClimber]

As PB notes above, unless you remove grade crossings, train travel is a tough sell. One thing I have to laugh at is the fact that train travel and cargo movement is so more efficient than use of cars and trucks in terms of carbon foot print. But trains can't match the speed in terms of moving people and freight. Notwithstanding all the self-proclaimed environmentalists out there, if we really wanted to reduce carbon output, we'd learn to slow down and move people and freight by train. As PB states -- what's old could be new. But we are unwilling to give up the convenience of the auto and the speed of the truck. And even with electric vehicles and all the issues associated with batteries and rare earth metal mining, I don't think you match the efficiency of trains. Not to digress too far, but work from home -- to the extent workable for various industries (e.g., accounting, law, other service industries) -- would also substantially reduce the carbon output and strain on the roadway infrastructure. Will be interesting to see how much of the WFH paradigm survives the pandemic.

 

[Andrew]

In full disclosure I'm currently modeling a similar scenario on a model railroad where there is a fictional National Forest entrance station that I had no room for a parking area. All visitors arrive by bike or train to the 'Vermont Piedmonts National Forest' near the tourist town; been trying to justify why the place is so popular so my wife will let me buy passenger equipment.

 

[Mike P.]

As PB notes above, unless you remove grade crossings, train travel is a tough sell. One thing I have to laugh at is the fact that train travel and cargo movement is so more efficient than use of cars and trucks in terms of carbon foot print. But trains can't match the speed in terms of moving people and freight. Notwithstanding all the self-proclaimed environmentalists out there, if we really wanted to reduce carbon output, we'd learn to slow down and move people and freight by train. As PB states -- what's old could be new. But we are unwilling to give up the convenience of the auto and the speed of the truck. And even with electric vehicles and all the issues associated with batteries and rare earth metal mining, I don't think you match the efficiency of trains. Not to digress too far, but work from home -- to the extent workable for various industries (e.g., accounting, law, other service industries) -- would also substantially reduce the carbon output and strain on the roadway infrastructure. Will be interesting to see how much of the WFH paradigm survives the pandemic.

With the exception I wouldn't want to put a dime into a Trillionaire's pockets, If freight went to enough (new) amazing warehouses (in all the malls they would put out of business) and they had an all electric fleet (power generated mostly from solar and wind on their huge rooftops), you could eliminate the need to shop for anything you would buy at a mall. Running rail or building these huge warehouses near freight lines (they do) would eliminate new business. (I have no idea who is using the large JC Penney Warehouse in Manchester CT these days) No solar on that roof either. Covid-19 almost made this happen.

OTOH, Is Greenville on an existing rail line? Maybe freight for wood and potatoes from the day before trucks could haul the weight at the speeds they haul it now.