Moosehead Ski Area Proposal

[peakbagger]

Yes Greenville has the former Canadian National running through it, its now owned by CMQR https://www.cmqrailway.com/about/history/. Its part of the convoluted rail network that connects the Atlantic Provinces of Canada to the rest of Canada. Its shorter to cut through Maine than it is go up and around it. It was used to ship tar sands oil to Atlantic Canada for several years until a very high profile accident just west of Maine border where a loaded train rolled into the town of Lac Meganitic Quebec and burned most of the town. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-Mégantic_rail_disaster. It took a few years and lots of litigation to sort it out and I think that particular trade is now restricted but it still gives a freight connection to Searsport Maine ( a deep water port) and Atlantic Canada from Quebec. It runs roughly parallel to the AT through the western end of the 100 miles wilderness and when it runs through late at night it can be heard for miles.

 

[jniehof]

its now owned by CMQR https://www.cmqrailway.com/about/history/. Its part of the convoluted rail network that connects the Atlantic Provinces of Canada to the rest of Canada.

They've been pushing ads into my Facebook feed for months advertising "direct access to Maine ports!" (Searsport) and showing a line directly east from south-central New Hampshire to Maine. I'm pretty sure they have no track in NH (all PanAm/Guilford, now CSX) and any route that touches their system would be wildly indirect.

Lac-Mégantic was Bakken shale crude from North Dakota, not WCS synthetic crude from the tar sands, if you believe Wikipedia. There's very little hydrocarbon transport between western and eastern Canada, for some reason--Alberta has been looking to export either to the Pacific ports or to the US (and Gulf ports ultimately), thus Keystone XL and Trans-Mountain as the alternative. I'm not sure of the underlying reason for this. Thunder Bay may not be equipped to load oil from rail or pipeline to tankers, building a pipeline across the prairies and Canadian Shield would be technically difficult, and there may be restrictions on crude shipping in the Great Lakes/St. Lawrence system. Transportation links east would have to compete with the grain from the prairies. The opposition to the Saguenay CNG pipeline (and liquefaction plant) also suggests there wouldn't be much appetite for an even longer pipeline carrying crude instead of CNG.

 

[jniehof]

While I'm wearing my pedantic Canadian rail geek hat, I should also note MMA/CMQR is former CP not former CN, and now reacquired by CP.

 

[ChrisB]

In full disclosure I'm currently modeling a similar scenario on a model railroad where there is a fictional National Forest entrance station that I had no room for a parking area. All visitors arrive by bike or train to the 'Vermont Piedmonts National Forest' near the tourist town; been trying to justify why the place is so popular so my wife will let me buy passenger equipment.

Cool! What scale?

Your concept sounds a bit like the High Line in MT where is passes Glacier Park. When I rode it there were lots of hikers and bicyclists getting on and off in West Glacier.

Amtrak must yield to freight traffic unfortunately, so don't get hung up on scheduled arrival / departure times.

 

[Mike P.]

They've been pushing ads into my Facebook feed for months advertising "direct access to Maine ports!" (Searsport) and showing a line directly east from south-central New Hampshire to Maine. I'm pretty sure they have no track in NH (all PanAm/Guilford, now CSX) and any route that touches their system would be wildly indirect.

Lac-Mégantic was Bakken shale crude from North Dakota, not WCS synthetic crude from the tar sands, if you believe Wikipedia. There's very little hydrocarbon transport between western and eastern Canada, for some reason--Alberta has been looking to export either to the Pacific ports or to the US (and Gulf ports ultimately), thus Keystone XL and Trans-Mountain as the alternative. I'm not sure of the underlying reason for this. Thunder Bay may not be equipped to load oil from rail or pipeline to tankers, building a pipeline across the prairies and Canadian Shield would be technically difficult, and there may be restrictions on crude shipping in the Great Lakes/St. Lawrence system. Transportation links east would have to compete with the grain from the prairies. The opposition to the Saguenay CNG pipeline (and liquefaction plant) also suggests there wouldn't be much appetite for an even longer pipeline carrying crude instead of CNG.

The same reason for not going across Canada with dangerous cargo would be that they foresaw an accident like Lac Meganitic in Quebec happening and said NIMBY. Usually, that's our line when we do something in a poor neighborhood or another country. In this case it was through our yard and the accident was close to our backyard.

At the time of the derailment I was in the reinsurance business so I remember it well. A derailment that burns a town or explosions like what happened in TX is what reinsurance is for. (TX's business climate is so pro-business, the business that was hoarding the same chemical fertilizer used in OKC only had a 1M policy. The company wrote the check and the business filed Chapter 11)

 

[Andrew]

Cool! What scale?

Your concept sounds a bit like the High Line in MT where is passes Glacier Park. When I rode it there were lots of hikers and bicyclists getting on and off in West Glacier.

Amtrak must yield to freight traffic unfortunately, so don't get hung up on scheduled arrival / departure times.

It's N scale Chris. All started from my son & wife getting the US Forest Service - Smokey Bear collectible trains for Christmas a few years back.

I started to wonder yesterday if any abandoned rails existed out of or nearby Greenville for something like this: https://hoborr.com/rail-bike-adventures/ (I was looking for another outfit and just found this closer to home!).

After we discovered this activity 2 years ago we did this trip: https://wildernesswebb.com/2019/09/14/mountain-family-meets-the-ocean/

When I got back to work in the Berlin/Gorham area I teased every chamber/tourism related official I ran into to tell them they could try something like this, except they ripped all their rails up. There are a lot of new and exciting outdoor recreation ideas out there, and the more diverse and interesting things for people to do may lead to better success.

 

[Mac]

When I was much younger, our Parks and Rec Director (originally from somewhere in New England) would organize a ski trip to Greenville from our town in Nova Scotia. We used the passenger rail service that was mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

[NHClimber]

It's N scale Chris. All started from my son & wife getting the US Forest Service - Smokey Bear collectible trains for Christmas a few years back.

I started to wonder yesterday if any abandoned rails existed out of or nearby Greenville for something like this: https://hoborr.com/rail-bike-adventures/ (I was looking for another outfit and just found this closer to home!).

After we discovered this activity 2 years ago we did this trip: https://wildernesswebb.com/2019/09/14/mountain-family-meets-the-ocean/

When I got back to work in the Berlin/Gorham area I teased every chamber/tourism related official I ran into to tell them they could try something like this, except they ripped all their rails up. There are a lot of new and exciting outdoor recreation ideas out there, and the more diverse and interesting things for people to do may lead to better success.

Funny, I've often thought that it would be fun to build a rail rider and take it up to Pondicherry. Of course, someone would probably tattle tail on me if I did given that technically the line is still in service. There's a NH speeder club that was running real speeders there a few years back when we were hiking to Pondicherry. Probably the same club that rides the Wolfeboro line from time to time. Portsmouth RI is a nice place and it's good to see that they didn't rip up the rails. There's a reasonably long rail path in Bristol too (no rails). I wonder how far one could travel on the mountain division starting in N. Conway and heading towards Portland. Apologies for thread hijack.

 

[egilbe]

Funny, I've often thought that it would be fun to build a rail rider and take it up to Pondicherry. Of course, someone would probably tattle tail on me if I did given that technically the line is still in service. There's a NH speeder club that was running real speeders there a few years back when we were hiking to Pondicherry. Probably the same club that rides the Wolfeboro line from time to time. Portsmouth RI is a nice place and it's good to see that they didn't rip up the rails. There's a reasonably long rail path in Bristol too (no rails). I wonder how far one could travel on the mountain division starting in N. Conway and heading towards Portland. Apologies for thread hijack.

I'm continuing your hijack. Mountain division trail continues north of Fryeburg, but I think there is still rail on part of it. It mostly goes to Portland. There may be a stretch or two that's not official and just "planned". Former co-workers walk it in Windham several times a month. Being a rail trail, its good for bikes.

 

[peakbagger]

To extend your hijack.In concept you can go all the way to Portland and tracks are still in place with the exception of local washouts.

The southern section of the Mountain division in Maine was scheduled to have all its rails removed 15 to 20 years ago for conversion to a rail trail. With a 50 foot right of way its far less costly to rip out the rails and grade the ballast and bring in stone dust. The Sebago to the Sea organization laid out their route assuming this would happen. You can get an idea of the status south of Sebago Lake on their site https://www.sebagotothesea.org/ A local politician got involved and forced the state to keep the rails from Portland up to South Windham and there were hopes that a large wood pellet plant would be built in Baldwin which would utilize the track (has not happened). Most of the rail trail to Sebago Lake is a "trail adjacent to track" similar to Fryeburg.https://www.google.com/search?q=rai...UFZc0KHds5CFcQ_AUoAnoECAUQBA&biw=1680&bih=936 for images There was a washout under the tracks in the Hiram area at one point. At one point there were track cars using a section from Fryeburg south for some distance into Brownfield possibly farther to Hiram. My guess is they also go north to the rail and trail build in Fryeburg. I dont think there is any entity involved with keeping the right of way cleared north of Sebago lake to Fryeburg so eventually it will grow in to the point where its impassable. The section from Hiram to Fryeburg is partially elevated in the Saco River floodplain so floods and beavers may have knocked out sections. The only rail use is (or was) to bring in bulk chemicals to the Sappi Mill in Westbrook. That mill has been on its last legs for decades and recently closed their next to last paper machine. I am unsure if they are even using the track at this point as many suppliers have switched to truck delivery for small demands. No doubt at some point it will finally close and the rail siding will be used to haul the scrap out of site that has been in the paper business since the 1730s long before paper was made from trees.

The route up from Portland is quite interesting as its routed adjacent to a coastal estuary called the Fore River, it then goes through Westbrook and then heads north on the East shore of the Presumpscot River. The section along the Presumpscot north of Westbrook is mostly wild as unlike many local rivers the two roads on either side of the river are set back a couple thousand feet from the river and the towns along it have zoned the frontage along the river as rural agricultural. That section of river down to Westbrook was previously dammed but the dam is either partially or entirely removed by now. There is an ongoing effort to remove dams or install fish ladders all the way to Sebago Lake but progress is measured in decades as hydro licenses get renewed. There signs of anadromous fish runs increasing every year. No doubt once a couple of hundred of years of sediments flush out upstream of the former dam in Westbrook the fish will be found up at Malison Falls in south Windham, the next dam in the chain. North of Sebago it transitions over to the Saco River watershed. I do not see the rural towns north of Windham having any interest in rail trails, they are mostly commuter towns to Portland fading into rural towns as the commute lengthens.

If the 3.5 mile section from South Windham to Westbrook were converted to a rail and trail I would expect it would get a lot more use. Sebago to the Sea appears to have stalled on funding and no one organization seems to have a grand vision of what could be put in given the excellent access to mostly undeveloped wild lands directly from Portland. IMO its definitely "if you will build it they will come opportunity". Wild land in the Portland area is rapidly being chewed up and this would be an opportunity to keep a strip all the way to the Lake and beyond.

 

[JoshandBaron]

I wonder how far one could travel on the mountain division starting in N. Conway and heading towards Portland.

I know at least one person who has done a "sea to summit" using that route.

 

[egilbe]

I followed the Sebago to the Sea route on Google Maps. It looks like it would be a decent hiking trail. Stretch it all the way to Mt Washington and have that as one terminus. The other in Portland.

 

[NHClimber]

If I had the Gates' money, I'd rehab the line and also the Balsams (unrelated) and run them for the benefit of the various communities. I'd set additional amounts aside, the interest from which would support the annual losses that both of these projects would incur.

 

[ChrisB]

It's N scale Chris. All started from my son & wife getting the US Forest Service - Smokey Bear collectible trains for Christmas a few years back.

I started to wonder yesterday if any abandoned rails existed out of or nearby Greenville for something like this: https://hoborr.com/rail-bike-adventures/ (I was looking for another outfit and just found this closer to home!).

After we discovered this activity 2 years ago we did this trip: https://wildernesswebb.com/2019/09/14/mountain-family-meets-the-ocean/

When I got back to work in the Berlin/Gorham area I teased every chamber/tourism related official I ran into to tell them they could try something like this, except they ripped all their rails up. There are a lot of new and exciting outdoor recreation ideas out there, and the more diverse and interesting things for people to do may lead to better success.

What fun!! And given the efficiency of steel wheels on steel rails you were rolling at a good clip in that video.

I wonder if Conway Scenic would ever consider a self-powered day on part of their system. Crank Crawford Notch!!!

 

[Hillwalker]

Warning, more thread drift.......

There are some fun videos about that from South America and eslewhereon YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viSJsOUCGu4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8mhIdZoVow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D1l3sMc56c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBsSY3Ktqss

 

[peakbagger]

And more

Before the Conway Scenic sealed the deal with the state to lease the track through Crawford Notch for an incredibly nominal fee, there were folks running track cars over it as well as some un-powered track cars using gravity assist. There was a video of one of these trips online long ago. At some point CSRR was in the process of repairing the track assuming it was not being used and had equipment across the track and one or more of the bootleg cars ran into it. I dont think anyone was killed but that in theory shut down a bootleg activity. There was some debate at the time that since it was owned by the state why should it be reserved exclusively for CSRR a private entity? I think organized groups have subsequently been allowed to run the track under CSRR control on a very limited basis but do not know if the new owners have continued it.

I had envisioned a similar run from Berlin to Gorham on the abandoned Boston & Maine track when it still existed. Its one long gradual downhill grade with some nice vews of the face of the Cascade Falls on the Androscoggin that are mostly hidden from the general public by the mill complex. These falls and the nearby Alpine Cascade (similar to the Flume) was the biggest tourist attraction in the whites when the only rail access was the Saint Laurence and Atlantic. This was before the papermill and the dam was built taking advantage of the significant drop in the river. I did a scouting trip but never got around to building something to run the rails as one of the downsides of this section was some of the thickest tick populations I have ever encountered at a time when ticks were not present in the north country. I believe the state was the one that sold the rights to a private firm to strip the rails, ties and any other misc components. The contractor did it during a record hot and dry summer and managed to start a pretty significant forest fire up the side of Cascade Mountain in Gorham. The state never did go through with the rail trail proposal but did spend ATV and snowmobile registration dollars in later years to upgrade the track bed. They eventually designated the section west of Pinkham B road in Randolph as a rail trail but never brought in stone dust to smooth out the bed. Road bikers complain about this but unlike ATV and snowmobiles bikes do not require registration fees so upgrades for bikes are dependent on grants and other intermittent sources. . There have been upgrades in the Cherry Mountain Pond area and one of the old rail bridges was rehabbed last year. The most interesting section of the route is the section east of Pinkham B to the ATV lot in Gorham as it goes through the steep walled Moose River valley before coming out in Gorham. This section is used for snowmobiles and folks with bikes that can deal with the rough bed. There was a wash out last year but it was fixed.

 

[Andrew]

Chris, that was one of the beauties- the design of the rail car was heavy, so momentum was easily achieved. Pedaling easy, wheels steel and real so you got the wonderful clickety-clack as you rolled. If I could have pedaled home to NH, I would have. Peakbagger, so much would be gained if the rail trail between Gorham and Pondicherry was hardened. The Friends of Pondicherry did a good job (so far) on the popular section from near the airfield in Whitefield. I suggested once to the Trails Bureau district chief in your town, that he should encourage one of his outfits to convert an ATV into some semblance of a Thomas wagon to keep alive a nod to the rail history of the trails and add a tourist interest; he thinks I'm crazy. My billionaire dream would be to run railcarts from Cottage Street in Littleton up to Whitefield for ice cream, then on to Pondicherry.

 

[egilbe]

more thread drift...

Looking at the maps of the area surrounding Pondicherry, Cherry mountain is the one that pops up to the south? Is it hiked much in the Winter? And is the trailhead parking lot plowed? I've driven by it several times in the Summer after hiking other peaks in the area. I'm going to have to stop at some point, I think.

 

[JoshandBaron]

more thread drift...

Looking at the maps of the area surrounding Pondicherry, Cherry mountain is the one that pops up to the south? Is it hiked much in the Winter? And is the trailhead parking lot plowed? I've driven by it several times in the Summer after hiking other peaks in the area. I'm going to have to stop at some point, I think.

There is a snomo trail that goes up from Cherry Mtn Rd to Mt Martha.

https://www.vftt.org/forums/showthr...-mountain-trail-martha-s-mile&ampgoto=newpost

 

[Andrew]

more thread drift...

Looking at the maps of the area surrounding Pondicherry, Cherry mountain is the one that pops up to the south? Is it hiked much in the Winter? And is the trailhead parking lot plowed? I've driven by it several times in the Summer after hiking other peaks in the area. I'm going to have to stop at some point, I think.

Neither of the Cherry Mt. trailheads from Rte, 115 get plowed in the winter. I used to commute daily by it and saw evidence of frequent desperate struggles with snow. The shoulder is somewhat wide by both trailheads, but would be safer at south trailhead. You can also hike from the Old Cherry Mt Rd. in fair seasons.