Moosilauke Summit Sign Gone

[David Metsky]

Does NPS just delegate to USFS throughout NH, then? It seems odd for USFS to be enforcing standards on an NPS trail on DOC land.

We always interacted with the FS, through the ATC. Not sure if the NPS gets involved or if the USFS is enforcing NPS standards. Yes, the NPS administers the AT but we dealt with the FS on a day-to-day basis when I was dealing with this.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Summit-signs-taken-down-on-the-Carters has some information on the USFS policy regarding summit signs and cairns...

Tim

 

[Raven]

A lot of historical signage is going to be removed if they truly replace all the signs along the AT with the new federal signs that appear to be made out of surplus stock left over from a McDonald's booth.
It will be interesting to see how well the new material holds up in the long term.

If word gets out along the AT that the signs are being replaced, those historical signs may start to disappear fast.

 

[RoySwkr]

There is no reason that I know of that would explain knocking down cairns up there - they meet all the trail maintenance guidelines.

The FS has removed a number of large cairns above treeline and used the material to build stone walls - look at your old photos of Thunderstorm Jct, Eisenhower, etc. [That doesn't prove they did it here, but the same folks that encourage such action by the FS may have done it here feeling it is an improvement.]

Eisenhower would sure take a while to scatter! Although the AT skips Ike, as well.

Most of the Eisenhower cairn is already gone...

Summit-signs-taken-down-on-the-Carters has some information on the USFS policy regarding summit signs and cairns...

Note that this policy conflicts with the NPS policy for the AT, which generally encourages summit signs - note photos by AT hikers

 

[TJsName]

If word gets out along the AT that the signs are being replaced, those historical signs may start to disappear fast.

Is there reallu that big of a crowd that will only steal a sign if they know it is going to be replaced?

 

[Raven]

Is there reallu that big of a crowd that will only steal a sign if they know it is going to be replaced?

I doubt it's a large crowd. It only take one person to take a sign. In my experience, when people know something old is about to be replaced (and possibly discarded), they are more likely to consider taking it than they would otherwise.

I would doubt that the ATC would broadcast their information for that very reason. Have you seen what people pay for AMC signs at the auction? A few went for $1500-$2000 this last year, and they weren't AT summit signs.

And with the increase in sign vandalism I have seen in the past number of years, I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt as much as I used to.

 

[TJsName]

I doubt it's a large crowd. It only take one person to take a sign. In my experience, when people know something old is about to be replaced (and possibly discarded), they are more likely to consider taking it than they would otherwise.

I would doubt that the ATC would broadcast their information for that very reason. Have you seen what people pay for AMC signs at the auction? A few went for $1500-$2000 this last year, and they weren't AT summit signs.

And with the increase in sign vandalism I have seen in the past number of years, I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt as much as I used to.

I'm not sure I know anyone who would be willing to snag a sign regardless of it's status, but perhaps I am naive. I did see the prices fetched for those AMC signs, but my understanding is that it's also a fundraisers for the AMC. I'm not sure those buyers would get the same in retails, but perhaps I don't know the market very well.

 

[David Metsky]

I'm not sure I know anyone who would be willing to snag a sign regardless of it's status, but perhaps I am naive.

Unfortunately there are those folks out there - collectors who will pay for something that is rare and sought after.

 

[Hillwalker]

Does NPS just delegate to USFS throughout NH, then? It seems odd for USFS to be enforcing standards on an NPS trail on DOC land.

Several years ago, during the period of time when I was the AT Corridor Monitor Coordinator for the DOC, the NPS "Administratively transferred" the AT Corridor within NH to the USFS, WMNF. I used to have a copy of the transfer document, but turned it back into the DOC with all my maps, deeds, and easements. Two file cabinets full.

 

[peakbagger]

There was a fairly active but sporadic market on "legal" signs. I generally look at the results of the RMC sign auctions which are still pricey. The RMC retired signs used to be sold at Moriah Sports in Gorham and I know at least one VFTT reader who bought a few and used to have them hung in her office. I think most groups have switched to an annual auction and thus the supply has dried up. MATC will not sell them due to the fear of establishing a market.

I perceive that at least some of the signs being auctioned are selected as much for their notoriety as for their condition. I have always been surprised that some entrepreneur hasn't started selling reproductions of the infamous yellow USFS treeline warning signs.

 

[David Metsky]

The FS has removed a number of large cairns above treeline and used the material to build stone walls - look at your old photos of Thunderstorm Jct, Eisenhower, etc. [That doesn't prove they did it here, but the same folks that encourage such action by the FS may have done it here feeling it is an improvement.]

The DOC does trailwork up there, not the Forest Service. And we've built fairly extensive scree walls over the years. It seems that whoever did this did so as an act of vandalism.

 

[TJ aka Teej]

Wait, what? Cairns being removed? Cairns saved my life once.

 

[David Metsky]

Wait, what? Cairns being removed? Cairns saved my life once.

Someone knocked them over. They'll be rebuilt.

 

[iagreewithjamie]

The FS has removed a number of large cairns above treeline and used the material to build stone walls - look at your old photos of Thunderstorm Jct, Eisenhower, etc. [That doesn't prove they did it here, but the same folks that encourage such action by the FS may have done it here feeling it is an improvement.]

That works only if the wall is as big as a cairn. Something tells me a wall wouldn't remain visible beyond a couple of good snow storms. Kinda useless if you ask me. But it is ironic that many of those cairns were built out of old stone walls, and now they're being knocked down to build walls.

 

[IQuest]

I believe that the "stone walls" are more to protecect the fragile vegatation than for navigation.

 

[David Metsky]

I believe that the "stone walls" are more to protecect the fragile vegatation than for navigation.

Correct, the walls are not intended as navigation aids. Keep in mind that in winter on top of Moosilauke the wind generally carries most of the snow away in the bare areas so the function somewhat in that capacity. And the cairns on Ike and T-Storm junction were far bigger than was needed for navigation.

Either way, that's not what happened on Moosilauke according the to FS.

 

[iagreewithjamie]

Vandals amaze me. Who would go through the effort of climbing a mountain just to tear stuff down? This week, I passed some graffiti in the middle of a remote river - who would paddle 6 miles into oblivion to tag a rock?

 

[Grey J]

Vandals amaze me. Who would go through the effort of climbing a mountain just to tear stuff down? This week, I passed some graffiti in the middle of a remote river - who would paddle 6 miles into oblivion to tag a rock?

An oblivious rock-head?

 

[miehoff]

Ok. I have the sign, ok? It is in a location that I AM NOT going to obviously tell you, but the sign is uncomfortable and it is in a city environment. I CAN say, the elevation is taking a toll. We (my team), occasionally throw ice and spray it with cold water. We take it outside for sun and extreme solar exposure. If it's lucky, we bury it under snow and ice for prolonged periods.

THIS WILL NOT CONTINUE!

We will return the sign after receiving all of the "I climbed this-and-that" patches, a full and instant senior member status on VFTT, and a $200,000.00 gift card to any Common Man restaurant or Spa and premier parking at every trailhead.

WE ARE SERIOUS! DON'T PLAY GAMES! IF WE DON'T RECEIVE A REPLY IN THE NEXT 24 HOURS, WE WILL ADMINISTER A 40 GRIT PAD VIA ORBITAL SANDER AND SLOWLY TURN YOUR "SIGN" INTO AN ORGANIC MEMORY!

LET'S PLAY BALL!

 

[iagreewithjamie]

and a $200,000.00 gift card to any Common Man restaurant or Spa

That won't last you very long. The Common Man cost more than most places I eat in Boston.