More on NH hikers and driver's licenses

[maineguy]

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/nh-hikers-license-suspended-search-and-rescue/

I've never understood the rationale for doing this kind of thing...punishing a driver for something he did walking.

I think NH does the same thing if you get a OUI in a boat...they suspend your driver's license

 

[skiguy]

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/nh-hikers-license-suspended-search-and-rescue/

I've never understood the rationale for doing this kind of thing...punishing a driver for something he did walking.

I think NH does the same thing if you get a OUI in a boat...they suspend your driver's license

If they are not going to pay then it will make it harder to play. You can’t go hiking again solo at least if you can’t legally drive to the trailhead. Also to work if you can’t drive yourself. Maybe that is seen as a deterrent and or motivation to pay the costs. It does seem a bit disconnected. Although the OUI thing makes total sense. I believe in NH if you are found guilty of OUI in any mode of motorized transportation you loose your privilege to operate all other modes.

 

[TomK]

I've never understood the rationale for doing this kind of thing...punishing a driver for something he did walking.

If I were looking for rationality, government is the last place I'd start looking.

TomK

 

[sierra]

Once again, the hike safe card is mis-understood. The newscaster stated, that if you have a hike safe card it acts as insurance against being charged for a rescue. Correct me if I am wrong, that is not correct in every case?

 

[Rhody Seth]

Once again, the hike safe card is mis-understood. The newscaster stated, that if you have a hike safe card it acts as insurance against being charged for a rescue. Correct me if I am wrong, that is not correct in every case?

If you do something truly dumb, you can still get charged. Per the Fish n Game site: It is important to note that people may still be liable for response expenses, if they are deemed to be reckless or to have intentionally created a situation requiring an emergency response.

 

[JoshandBaron]

Once again, the hike safe card is mis-understood. The newscaster stated, that if you have a hike safe card it acts as insurance against being charged for a rescue. Correct me if I am wrong, that is not correct in every case?

III. Regardless of a person's possession of a document satisfying subparagraph I(a), (b), or (c), a person shall be liable to the department for search and rescue response expenses if the person is judged to have done any of the actions listed in RSA 153-A:24, I.

153-A:24 Responsibility for Public Agency Response Services. –
I. A person shall be liable for response expenses if, in the judgment of the court, such person:
(c) Recklessly or intentionally creates a situation requiring an emergency response.
II. A person's liability under this subdivision for response expenses shall not exceed $10,000 for any single public agency response incident.

 

[DayTrip]

Once again, the hike safe card is mis-understood. The newscaster stated, that if you have a hike safe card it acts as insurance against being charged for a rescue. Correct me if I am wrong, that is not correct in every case?

That was my exact thought. The article mentions only reckless hikers get billed. And isn't the Hike Safe card supposed to exclude reckless behavior? Big contradiction. I read that as "For $25 I can do whatever the hell I want and it's covered."

 

[Will]

Maybe not a huge fan of the Hike Safe Card

The card is limited protection at best, totally aside from the issue of extortion (basically a bully trying to take your lunch money). Is solo hiking reckless? Is bushwhacking reckless? Officials have said yes to both in the past (admittedly not in the context of the card). Even with a card, it's going to be luck of the draw as to who is making the decision when your time comes. Down the road it could be did you have a GPS? A cell phone? Did you have your mother along to watch over you?

Clearly a judge is unlikely to support those kinds of behavior as reckless and you won't have to actually pay, but you'll be out your legal fees, court costs and loss of your time to contest.

I recognize the need to have some mechanism for funding a service that legitimately needs funding, but which the jurisdiction has refused to fund, and I like the idea of users of a resource being targeted as fund sources for the administration of that resource. But why hide that kind of legitimate tax under such questionable pretense?

 

[sierra]

The card is limited protection at best, totally aside from the issue of extortion (basically a bully trying to take your lunch money). Is solo hiking reckless? Is bushwhacking reckless? Officials have said yes to both in the past (admittedly not in the context of the card). Even with a card, it's going to be luck of the draw as to who is making the decision when your time comes. Down the road it could be did you have a GPS? A cell phone? Did you have your mother along to watch over you?

Clearly a judge is unlikely to support those kinds of behavior as reckless and you won't have to actually pay, but you'll be out your legal fees, court costs and loss of your time to contest.

I recognize the need to have some mechanism for funding a service that legitimately needs funding, but which the jurisdiction has refused to fund, and I like the idea of users of a resource being targeted as fund sources for the administration of that resource. But why hide that kind of legitimate tax under such questionable pretense?

I agree with your points. Here's my take on the card. It should cost more, say 50 to 65 dollars AND it should cover any cost incurred for the card holder, period. You traverse Franconia Ridge in a tutu and flip flops, covered if you have the card. You don't have a card, you should be billed for your rescue regardless of the circumstances, every rescued party gets a bill. That's how it should work.

 

[DayTrip]

Why not a program like this for the State?
https://www.globalrescue.com/person...Ez8ejtVl0az_zKKQASjBk8oDw4cVV-e0aAnK6EALw_wcB

I believe there are multiple companies that provide this type of trip insurance. I know it is geared toward more remote travel but the idea seems solid. Anyone here ever use it in their more exotic travels?? Maybe the Hike Safe card could be utilized in a similar manner with tiers or something like Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced or by season or whatever. And then like Sierra said. No matter what happens you're covered.

Of course it would be like any other insurance product and need a lot of policy holders to be solvent enough to pay for claims. Maybe it could be mandatory like auto liability insurance??

 

[JoshandBaron]

Why not a program like this for the State?
https://www.globalrescue.com/person...Ez8ejtVl0az_zKKQASjBk8oDw4cVV-e0aAnK6EALw_wcB

I believe there are multiple companies that provide this type of trip insurance. I know it is geared toward more remote travel but the idea seems solid. Anyone here ever use it in their more exotic travels?? Maybe the Hike Safe card could be utilized in a similar manner with tiers or something like Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced or by season or whatever. And then like Sierra said. No matter what happens you're covered.

Of course it would be like any other insurance product and need a lot of policy holders to be solvent enough to pay for claims. Maybe it could be mandatory like auto liability insurance??

I have "a crisis assistance plan" through SPOT. $35 a year. It covers 2 fully funded responses a year.

 

[Mike P.]

The Global I note does not appear to cover Kidnap and Ransom, costs which you can buy insurance for. There is no "true " insurance product that covers gross negligence. The tutu flip flops, I understand it was a silly example, would be akin to dousing your home in gasoline and then trying to see if you can throw torches out your windows. (1st person Arson isn't covered in your Fire Policy)

J&B, I'd probably want to look for small print on your SPOT Coverage. I'd guess it won't cover any reason. If I go into the woods with nothing but a 1/5th of Jack, (or invent your own grossly stupid thing), they may not pay. Any 100% no questions asked coverage might encourage a stupidity challenge. To mansplain a friend, There is a limit to intelligence, (You can only know everything), stupidity is infinite.

 

[peakbagger]

In order for those programs to work there has to be trained and skilled staff on call to do a rescue. I have run into individuals in the past that are contracted to the federal government to do disaster type response but not sure if there are individuals willing and able to do S&R are available for a fast response in the whites outside of the fragile volunteer network currently in place. Volunteers are expected to do their best but ultimately they have no liability, the second that someone charges for rescue service, liability rears its ugly head. Lawyers would be lined up to second guess the actions of paid S&R crew. Note, its extremely difficult to sue a state but even NH is careful to only bill for expenses directly attributable to rescue and makes no attempt to compensate volunteers beyond providing volunteers access to collect disability payments if they are injured.

Sure we see it in the movies and no doubt there are organizations that can supply 24/7 rescue services, but my expectation is $30 a year is not going to access those services. And then there is the NH policy that they do not charge for hauling out the deceased. Who gets to pay for that largess? A state entity can just go plead their case at the legislature, or in the NH F&G position just cut some other budget. If the private entities do not get paid, then they may start doing the math and only accept the "easy" rescues that are going to yield someone with a pulse. And then that brings up what started the thread is what happens if the person being rescued has no assets? In the state case they reportedly set up payment plan but if its an out of state college kid with no assets how do they collect?. Even though there are some intrastate agreements, I hear frequently where fines in one state are uncollectable in another state. It sure looks to me that there is no viable private business model that would support a private rescue service.

Note that VT reportedly didnt have any organized S&R procedures in place until recently. A call for a rescue went to a state trooper and it was up to him/her to figure it out. If it was affiliated with a ski resort, resort staff would take the lead but anywhere else it was crapshop. After one or two high profile incidents they reportedly put in more formal system but unsure how or if it is funded.

 

[JoshandBaron]

The Global I note does not appear to cover Kidnap and Ransom, costs which you can buy insurance for. There is no "true " insurance product that covers gross negligence. The tutu flip flops, I understand it was a silly example, would be akin to dousing your home in gasoline and then trying to see if you can throw torches out your windows. (1st person Arson isn't covered in your Fire Policy)

J&B, I'd probably want to look for small print on your SPOT Coverage. I'd guess it won't cover any reason. If I go into the woods with nothing but a 1/5th of Jack, (or invent your own grossly stupid thing), they may not pay. Any 100% no questions asked coverage might encourage a stupidity challenge. To mansplain a friend, There is a limit to intelligence, (You can only know everything), stupidity is infinite.

Oh, it's not small print. Here are the exceptions I figure to be most relevant to hikers:
"Medical Assistance is not available to O&R Customer when required directly/indirectly as a result of:
13. Intentional self-inflicted injuries, attempted suicide or being in a state of insanity.
14. The O&R customer’s deliberate exposure to extraordinary danger (except in an attempt to save human life)
21. The O&R customer is under the influence of alcohol or has taken drugs or narcotics, or any poison, chemical
compound, gas, or fumes unless prescribed by a legally qualified physician or surgeon.
22. Bodily injury or sickness occasioned by or occurring while the O&R customer is committing or attempting to
commit a felony or to which a contributing cause was the O&R customer being engaged in an illegal activity"

 

[DayTrip]

I have "a crisis assistance plan" through SPOT. $35 a year. It covers 2 fully funded responses a year.

I seem to recall that too. Do you know the particulars of how it works? Does SPOT actually coordinate everything or do you just send them the bill for a rescue from whoever performs it? Do they actually have staff and complete the rescue (I assume not for that price)? I think membership in the AIARE has some sort of coverage like that too. Probably a lot of these programs out there that most people are not aware of. Worth promoting.

 

[DayTrip]

In order for those programs to work there has to be trained and skilled staff on call to do a rescue. I have run into individuals in the past that are contracted to the federal government to do disaster type response but not sure if there are individuals willing and able to do S&R are available for a fast response in the whites outside of the fragile volunteer network currently in place. Volunteers are expected to do their best but ultimately they have no liability, the second that someone charges for rescue service, liability rears its ugly head. Lawyers would be lined up to second guess the actions of paid S&R crew. Note, its extremely difficult to sue a state but even NH is careful to only bill for expenses directly attributable to rescue and makes no attempt to compensate volunteers beyond providing volunteers access to collect disability payments if they are injured.

Sure we see it in the movies and no doubt there are organizations that can supply 24/7 rescue services, but my expectation is $30 a year is not going to access those services. And then there is the NH policy that they do not charge for hauling out the deceased. Who gets to pay for that largess? A state entity can just go plead their case at the legislature, or in the NH F&G position just cut some other budget. If the private entities do not get paid, then they may start doing the math and only accept the "easy" rescues that are going to yield someone with a pulse. And then that brings up what started the thread is what happens if the person being rescued has no assets? In the state case they reportedly set up payment plan but if its an out of state college kid with no assets how do they collect?. Even though there are some intrastate agreements, I hear frequently where fines in one state are uncollectable in another state. It sure looks to me that there is no viable private business model that would support a private rescue service.

Note that VT reportedly didnt have any organized S&R procedures in place until recently. A call for a rescue went to a state trooper and it was up to him/her to figure it out. If it was affiliated with a ski resort, resort staff would take the lead but anywhere else it was crapshop. After one or two high profile incidents they reportedly put in more formal system but unsure how or if it is funded.

No. I did a quick sample quote for Globalstar for a solo, one time, 7 day trip and it was like $149. I noticed that they appear to be based in Lebanon, NH though so they might be uniquely suited to the Whites.

 

[briarpatch]

The Garmin SAR plan is only active when you are over 99 mile from home. I believe that the SPOT plan is active when you are over 150 miles from home or enter a another country. SPOT considers snowshoeing a hazardous sport when not done at a commercial operation.

 

[DayTrip]

It sure looks to me that there is no viable private business model that would support a private rescue service.

I was looking at more from the point of view of insurance coverage for the expense, not as contractors competing with SAR. NH SAR still completes the rescue, tallies the bill and submits it to the insurance carrier for reimbursement. Not unlike say a hurricane claim where your roof gets ripped off, you find a local guy to put on a new one and then the insurance company cuts that guy a check. I'd think/hope this would also by-pass the state sucking the funds away for other uses from the program. The SAR agency would get directly reimbursed from the private insurer.

 

[JoshandBaron]

The Garmin SAR plan is only active when you are over 99 mile from home. I believe that the SPOT plan is active when you are over 150 miles from home or enter a another country. SPOT considers snowshoeing a hazardous sport when not done at a commercial operation.

The plan is active at any location that is not the customer's permanent residence.

Relevant winter sports info:

"Hazardous Winter Sports
If the winter sports activities are undertaken within the authorized trails or confines of a commercial and supervised
ski resort area or winter sports gymnasium, these activities are covered and not considered hazardous winter sports
for the basis of this crisis assistance plan. O&R customers that participate in hazardous winter sports (further defined
herein) are covered under this crisis assistance plan, albeit limited to either search & rescue expenses or medically
necessary evacuation, further defined herein.
Hazardous winter sports are defined as the plan customer’s participation in the activities of skiing, cross-country
skiing, snowboarding, ice skating; snowshoeing; or any other sport undertaken in non-commercial areas that have no
care, custody, or control from a commercial operator and/or for thrill/profit/notoriety/publicity/endorsement/social
media attention-seeking, versus standard recreational purposes. When the O&R customer suffers a crisis or medically
necessary repatriation event, as a result of hazardous winter sports, the fully funded assistance benefit will be limited
to either search & rescue expenses or medically necessary evacuation to nearest appropriate hospital, but not both
benefits. Therefore, this plan’s fully funded benefit will cease immediately upon the completion of search & rescue
expenses or medically necessary evacuation to nearest appropriate hospital, whichever benefit has been provided
first. "

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

I get up to $25,000 to cover my rescue anywhere in the world as high as helicopters can fly through Global Rescue Ltd with my American Alpine Club membership. I have no idea how the AAC makes the financials work, but apparently it works based on testimonies that I have read.