Mountain Rescue Service speaks up about State billing

vftt.org

Help Support vftt.org:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Don't think I will be calling for help on my cellphone unless I think I would die otherwise.
 
"It does not, however, include the cost of the National Guard helicopter," Could someone explain to me the break down of a $7000 rescue than?
 
I'm pretty sure Mrs. Horgan posts here, I wonder if she'll respond. I find the situation ridiculous. The article is right, how much money does the state of NH spend on encouraging people to come climb these mountains, then charge them the full cost of a rescue on the way out if someone makes a mistake? At least they applied her charitable donation to the balance of the bill! :rolleyes: (that was sarcasm in case it didn't come across over the internets).

And I would also like the full breakdown here. We'll say they were called at 2PM and she was rescued at 10AM the next day. If the 7G goes to the 12 F&G people involved (again, according to the article), that means it cost ~600 per person. Somehow, I don't think these 12 officials were making 63,000 a year each, AND were working the full 20 hours of the rescue. If this were my rescue I would certainly question the dollar amount here.

I'm in the same boat here. I am not calling for help unless I'm literally dying on the trail. Unfortunately, someone dying because they didn't call for a rescue because of the fee is the only way anyone will wake up and realize how wrong this situation is. Not that I'm planning on being a martyr, just avoiding being charged 7 grand because the wind covered my tracks one day.
 
Last edited:
What I find very disturbing is that the state comes up with a "bill" of $7,471.74, but say it will take at least 60 days to review the request for a copy of the bill.

I also wonder if she had a compass? But it still looks like they are indeed lowering the bar.
 
"This is all a desperate attempt to extract money from hikers and climbers," said Rick Wilcox, the president of Mountain Rescue Service. "We don't think think they're going in the right direction by billing the type of hiker this lady represents."

Not much I can add to that. Oh wait...

"They have to be reckless and negligent before they're charged," Maj. Jordan said, which Horgan was.

Getting Lost = The New "Reckless" Standard. Somebody should test the water at F&G.
 
From the article:

‘‘That comes from the expenses for the rescue to go and get her,’’ (Maj. Kevin) Jordan said.
It does not, however, include the cost of the National Guard helicopter, he said, or the services of the multiple volunteer groups that responded. It covered the cost of the 12 Fish and Game conservation officers who responded, he said.
 
Somehow, I don't think these 12 officials were making 63,000 a year each, AND were working the full 20 hours of the rescue. If this were my rescue I would certainly question the dollar amount here.
They get over $20/hr straight time (and deserve it!), and much of this was probably time-and-a-half

I just saw a bill of over $500 for an ambulance transport of maybe 2 miles by the city FD so don't pass out downtown either :)
 
>Known forecast of bad weather.

>Known above treeline terrain.

>Choose to go solo.

>Despite "years of winter experience," choose not to get a back azimuth when leaving the treeline in blowing snow.

'Nuff said. When I do that, I will pay the bill, no questions asked. And, I will tip the rescuers well.
 
Always worth repeating:

"We don't want people to feel threatened if they call for help," Wilcox said. Concerns about being handed a bill could persuade people to wait until it's too late, which could turn more rescues into body recoveries.

What Rick is stating is consistent with the position of practically all the major national and international rescue associations, the Coast Guard, and the NPS.
 
We have discussed this topic many times, of course.

On the subject of actual rescue operations, I believe the rescue groups (I am a member of two such groups) have unassailable credentials, and in discussions of what should have been done on a particular rescue, I defer to their expertise.

But on the subject of financing, I think the opinion of the rescue groups is considerably colored by self interest, and I think it's an invalid "appeal to authority" error to validate their opinion in the financing arena based on their credibility in the operations arena. Naturally, a rescue group desires a consistent, budgeted revenue stream, as opposed to getting any part of their revenue from a potentially variable source such as billing; and a source which will potentially make the customer (the rescuee) dislike them. This colors their opinions in this area. Certainly, theirs is a legitimate voice in the discussion; but their position on this subject should not be overvalued based on their expertise in another subject.

I submit that those of us here on this forum have perhaps the least colored opinions, as we are both hikers (potential rescuees), SAR members (potential rescuers), and taxpayers (financers of the operations).
 
It's really two separate issues. The position that "it's unwise to have the specter of a large rescue bill borne by the victim delaying that rescue" is independent of the opinions on the various funding mechanisms that can be employed to avoid that scenario. They aren't asking for a "free lunch" or handout, just for a rational method for adequately funding the SAR groups, which appears to be something that NH is simply unable to do at the moment.
 
Perhaps we could steer clear of (((re)re)re)debating the funding issue and instead concentrate on what is new in this case? We can clearly stipulate at this point that the State of NH needs to come up with a new funding model for SAR.

Two questions that come to my mind are:

Has the bar been lowered? I.e., what is now the "reasonable person standard"? What combinations of the reasons TCD cited below are valid reasons to kick in the charge-for-rescue?
Was the bill too much?

Tim
(who soloed a handful of peaks this winter, and a handful of which were under sub-optimal or uncomfortable conditions, but never under what I considered no-go weather conditions...)
 
Last edited:
‘‘That comes from the expenses for the rescue to go and get her,’’ (Maj. Kevin) Jordan said.
It does not, however, include the cost of the National Guard helicopter, he said, or the services of the multiple volunteer groups that responded. It covered the cost of the 12 Fish and Game conservation officers who responded, he said.

Wait - *TWELVE* F&G conservation officers went out to locate someone who knew almost exactly where she was but just couldn't find the trail? That's in addition to the SAR volunteers that showed up?

Can someone from a SAR group or with other concrete knowledge say if that's a standard response for such a situation?
 
The watch out is the law suit they will get for not sending 12, if they send 6 and the 6 do not find the person. Litigation-happy society is a major driver in the cost of these activities.
 
The watch out is the law suit they will get for not sending 12, if they send 6 and the 6 do not find the person. Litigation-happy society is a major driver in the cost of these activities.

I hear this a lot, but once you get beyond internet hyperbole, is there anything behind it? The one such lawsuit I've heard of, and seen documentation for, regarding outdoor activities in New England got nowhere (person died in Tucks and their family tried to sue because there wasn't sufficient warning of dangerous conditions). If there are examples of actual successful lawsuits out there I'm happy to stand corrected.

Maddy, you're right that at some level we're dealing with funded/unfunded, haves and have-nots; but I don't see trying to create an entirely new system as a viable answer. Why not just put them on the same footing as USCG or NPS (I don't see why ORV should foot the bill, either)
 
Wait - *TWELVE* F&G conservation officers went out to locate someone who knew almost exactly where she was but just couldn't find the trail? That's in addition to the SAR volunteers that showed up?

Can someone from a SAR group or with other concrete knowledge say if that's a standard response for such a situation?

She didn't know "almost exactly where she was". She was lost in the trees and it was dark before anyone could get to her location: "The searchers got to the top of the mountain around 8 p.m. 'By that time it was dark, very very windy," Horgan said. She couldn't see or hear anyone, leaving her no better indication where she was. 'So I spent the night.'" As a result, twelve COs and the volunteers spent the night looking for her. Pretty hard to believe that she knew where she was.

As for the number of COs -- The news article quotes two volunteer leaders on what they expected: "'We all expected a much worse scenario than what we found," he said. 'She was in much better shape than I would have been had I gone through what she went through.'" and "'It was pretty brutal. We were certainly anticipating some injuries,' Alain Comeau, one of the three rescuers, said at the time. 'It was a surprise to find her in good health.'" So, Fish and Game responded to a wintertime incident in which the weather was bad, the subject was lost in the trees, and they were looking at a possible carryout from near the top of Jackson. If you've ever been involved in such a carryout, you will undoubtedly remember the times when you wished there were more personnel on the scene to share the load. The operation ran overnight to sometime near noon the next day. It's no mystery to me why twelve COs were involved in the response.
 
In my opinion it "raised the bar" for charges. The conditions the prior day and the day of the rescue were cold and windy, there may have been a wind chill advisory but realistically they were not excessive for a trail that runs in tree cover up to the last 100 yards. I have traditionally considered Jackson as a backup summit for marginal conditions as it does have limited exposure. I was on the same trail the day of the rescue and met the "victim"and F&G coming down.

The wind had blown over the trail down below the final ledges and it was obvious that the trail had been covered with fresh snow making for a couple of spots where the track disapeared even though it was well establshed down below. We got confused in a couple of spots in the upper hardwoods below the ledges where there was no trace of the trail despite prior hikers that day and the rescue effort. This was due to high winds and snow. When we summited, we used and needed full winter gear including goggles. When we had encountered the hiker and rescuers in question, she appeared to have all the essentials. I obviously didnt go over the list of "Hike Safe" essentials with her but given that she bivied overnight I expect she had the required gear.

IMO, unless there were circumstances that werent revealed in the press, the hiker was basically cited for hiking solo in winter and had the bad fortune to make a mistake . This is definitely raising the bar. Up into this point, citations were generally clear cut, an individual or groups of individuals were poorly equipped and lacking the gear in the "hike safe" criteria, or under the influence of some sort of substance. I expect the Eagle Scout rescue a few years back was the beginning of the slippery slope. This most recent example has added somewhat more undefinable criteria that applies to a majority of VFTT hikers, bascially it leaves it up to an arbitrary decision after the fact by an admistrator under fiscal pressure to decide if a hiker electing to did an "unsafe" act. Unfortunately it is a precedent unless contested.

On a somewhat related note, years ago I took a private pilots course, one of the things that was stressed by the instructor was that in communication with the FAA, that one had to be very careful on how to ask questions. If at any point you were a bit confused or had some potential mechanical issues, the controllers would immediately start asking if you wished to declare and "emergency", if you declined they would keep asking and give little assistance until you uttered the magic wood "yes". At that point, the emergency response plan was put in effect and it is a written document prepared in advance to cover all contingencies. When working in industry I have received HAZCON training and it is very similiar, when a incident meets HAZCON criteria (bascially if in doubt, its HAZCON, a written plan goes in effect and its hard to stop. I expect the receptionist at Highland Center is not trained to decide what is or is not an emergency and are instructed to call 911 if in doubt and once that happens F&G goes into "rescue mode" as I expect the receptionist is not going to take it upon themselves to decide if it is or isnt an emergency. Since 9/11many it not all emergency response plans have been formalized in matter that take out any chance of common sense.

Many years ago, the spouse of my hiking partner misunderstood some clear directions that we would be coming out very late from a long hike. She decided to call the state police, luckily it was some how shunted to a FS employee who decided to call AMC first who got on the radio and called Zealand Hut asking if we had come through. We had stopped in on our way out so the hut caretaker knew we were headed out. I expect if the call wasnt made, F&G would have responded and found us walking down Zealand Road with headlamps at 11 PM at night. With the new lowered bar, I have to wonder if I would be writing a check to F&G for that evening.

Do note F&G has to participate in the political process and one of the ways they have of keeping the debate in the public's mind is to get publicity on occasion and these fines and rescues is a convenient method of cranking up the focus on a poorly funded program. Given the lack of access to the room and meals tax which is a logical method of funding given the states tourist driven economy this will keep coming back again and again.
 
Top