Mt.Cabot Trail

[cp2000]

i wouldn't even let my dog sleep in.

I hear that one.


Someone already wrote "CP WUZ HEAR" on the bunk(not that I would have done it but........................)...........................

 

[dug]

From the NH Trail Conditions:

Trail: Cabot Trail to Cabot

Date Hiked: 11/19/05

Conditions: Very few blowdowns. Wet at lower elevations. Hard pack and some ice at upper elevations.

Special Required Equipment: Waterproof boots. Layers. Optional: gaiters, poles and stabilicers.

Comments: Temps in the mid to low 20s at the top.
AMC outing.

Submitted by: Troy G.

 

[vegematic]

I pm'd Dave Metsky with the AMC hike info. We can't stop the hike that already went but maybe AMC can get the word out to their hike leaders to avoid this trail in the future.
-veg

 

[dug]

So, we have an AMC publication stating to not use the trail. And an AMC trip using the trail.

OK.

 

[David Metsky]

So, we have an AMC publication stating to not use the trail. And an AMC trip using the trail.

OK.

Guys, you are inferring a connection between AMC Joy St and the Chapter/Committees that just doesn't exist. The organization isn't hierarchical like that, the local chapters do pretty much what they want. The fact that something is published in the WMG has little or no impact on trip planning.

I'll drop a line to the leader, but if they want to go there anyways there's not much else to do. Whether it's right or wrong to hike the trail, trying to make some connection with the AMC is not warrented, IMO.

-dave-

 

[dug]

Hmmm. I can go to an AMC web site. From there, I can go "Publications" where I can order a book (an official AMC Publication) that tells me not to go to on this trail, it's closed. Also from there, I can go to "Chapter Activities" where I can read the following, in part:


"The AMC offers thousands of trips each year through its volunteers and staff..."

Since the AMC White Mountain Guide, as it refers to itself (and I happen to agree) is the "Hiker's Bible", one would think this would be required reading for a trip that the AMC offers.

Dave, I know you happen to agree with staying off the trail, so it's not personal. I also believe you are a member of the AMC (not that makes you a bad guy, mind you), but trying to deliniate between the two groups is just not right. Whether or not they are completely seperate is really a moot point, because it certainly doesn't appear that way when you go to their page.

The USFS says "Please do not go there". The AMC says "The lower section of this trail has been closed by the landowner for the past few years and so must not be used at the present time...". We have landowners posting their land with "No Trespassing". Yet, I can still go onto an AMC website, read all the wonderful things about the outdoors....decide "this is for me, I think I'll take their ADVICE and hook up with a local chapter"...and follow a "leader" . Yet, I'm still in an area where for all of the reasons listed above, I should not be in. If you think the AMC has no fault in this, that that is completely wrong.

OBTW, the statement "...the local chapters do pretty much what they want..." is exactly what I'm referring to, and why their reputation isn't as it should be.

 

[dug]

OK, then let's take the AMC side of the house out of it. ANY trip leader, regardless of race, creed, color, or political affiliation, should ensure they are providing trips in "legal" areas. Now, whether or not this is a "legal" area may be open to debate. But, the self-professed stewards of the White Mountains have stated this is an area that should not be travelled. The United States Forest Service, who ultimately has been tasked with caring for, maintaining, and regulating the use of the White Mountains have stated this is an area that should not be travelled. The landowner who this trail crosses has maintained this is an area that should not be travelled. Therefore, it would then seem logical that this area should not be travelled

Now, the individual who is organizing and publicizing a trip to an area that should not be travelled needs to be policed. That can occur by contacting said individual themself. Or, you could try to contact the organization that points you to said individual. Whoa! Guess who that is?? I have attempted to contact the AMC to ask them about this, but have not heard back yet.

 

[David Metsky]

I'd also like to point out that the trip listing says nothing about the Mt Cabot Trail, just that the hike is going up Mt Cabot. So, the basic assumptions here could be all wrong. As far as I can tell, there's no evidence that anything bad happened.

And while I agree that it would be good if all leaders knew of the trail closure, not everyone out there (leader or not) does. There's no guarenteed method to get that information out. Many folks don't have the current issue of the AMC Guide (I don't), or read stuff like this online. It's a fact of life, one that we can work on improving, but not a huge problem. Communications can always be improved. I think if you tried a heavy hand at policing something like this you'd lose an awful lot of volunteer trip leaders who are the backbone of the organization.

-dave-

 

[RoySwkr]

Since the AMC White Mountain Guide, as it refers to itself (and I happen to agree) is the "Hiker's Bible", one would think this would be required reading for a trip that the AMC offers.

There are a couple of AMC leaders who post on this board who are apparently unable to understand guidebooks or read maps, most recently somebody who described trailheads in the Eastern Mahoosucs under NH Trail Conditions

It is not unusual for AMC trips to violate regulations, knowingly or otherwise, one leader was so mortified that he personally paid the fines for every member of the party while on another trip we took up a collection to pay the leader's fine

And to crib a comment from Mr. Metsky, these are unpaid volunteers and you shouldn't criticize their lack of diligence

But I would agree with the general thrust of the original comment, that whoever approves the schedules should know the Cabot Trail is closed and make the leader aware of it

However it has been made abundantly clear in past notes that this closure is probably illegal so if you are the sort that likes confrontation you might choose to go there

 

[Woody]

I have hiked to Mount Cabot twice this year. Once from the Fish Hatchery along the Bunnell Notch trail and later along the Unknown Pond Trail from Mill Brook Road. I would recommend taking the Mill Brook road route. It is much more interesting and as previous posts stated, you get to also get the Horn and the Bulge. The side trip to the Horn is worth the trip.

 

[Raymond]

You can hit The Horn and The Bulge from the fish hatchery as well. About 11 miles for the loop, I believe. If the road is open past the fish hatchery, that is. Didn't it close for a bridge repair/replacement?

And when did Evilhanz return??? Welcome back! You must have just slipped in under the gun.

 

[poison ivy]

The second bridge is still closed & under construction (or was in late October) but you can drive around it. When you arrive at the closed bridge, follow the pavement to the right and you'll see a dirt path going over a small green bridge. That gets you around the road closure and you can make it right up to the York Pond trailhead without any trouble.

- Ivy

 

[dug]

Funny...

Saw a trail conditions report about an group hike touting how proud they were to all wear snowshoes to help maintain the trail.

Another mentioning about 11 helped to celebrate someone finishing the list.

Last, one more talking about keeping the trail in good shape for the skiers.

On the AMC page, someone has posted a Kudos about the NH Chapter and a Winter Workshop (I thought they weren't related )

Just an FYI, my information is the landowner is as pissed off as ever.......

Keep it up, folks, and there may be other areas of the Kilkenny off-limits

 

[blacknblue]

Any developments on this over the summer?
I assume the Mount Cabot Trail is still unrecommended, but I thought I'd check.

 

[Double Bow]

I actually discussed this on Sunday with Steve Smith and he says that there was been no change to the status. Please continue to avoid the Mt. Cabot Trail.

 

[jjmcgo]

Flak Catcher

David Metsky, who has done so much for hikers on this site, his own, and in other ways, is playing the role here of "flak catcher," as outlined in Tom Wolfe's 1970 "Radical Chic & Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers." David isn't a proper target here for anger or criticism. He's trying to explain a situation with which he is familiar.
Might it be better if David or Dug forwarded a printout of this thread to the AMC high-command with a request that all trip leaders representing the AMC adhere to AMC published guidelines? Perhaps they need to monitor the trips board to ensure no one is planning to violate their policies.
As for the rest of us, we've been asked to not use the trail by the landowner, the USFS, VFTT, the AMC, and I believe I read earlier, the local police.
Obviously, informed non-compliance is defiance.

 

[bryan]

i have never understood why people can't just take another route. i have only climbed cabot once via bunnell notch in december and it was nice unbroken trail all the way. the only trace of anything other than moose on the trail i saw was upon reaching the mt. cabot trail junction which was completely hard packed (coming up from the closed section of trail) and remained that way to the summit.
off the top of my head i think the bunnell route is only about 2 or so miles longer round trip and it would avoid antagonizing an already angry land owner. it's his land and everyone should respect his wishes. hike the extra couple enjoyable miles.

bryan

 

[blacknblue]

i have never understood why people can't just take another route. i have only climbed cabot once via bunnell notch in december and it was nice unbroken trail all the way. the only trace of anything other than moose on the trail i saw was upon reaching the mt. cabot trail junction which was completely hard packed (coming up from the closed section of trail) and remained that way to the summit.
off the top of my head i think the bunnell route is only about 2 or so miles longer round trip and it would avoid antagonizing an already angry land owner. it's his land and everyone should respect his wishes. hike the extra couple enjoyable miles.

bryan

You are assuming, of course, that what you want out of a hike is exactly what everybody else does/should want out of a hike. My intent is not to simply summit Mount Cabot. I just wanted to see what my available options were. I had originally hoped to do a loop over Starr King, Waumbeck, and Terrace, and then descend Mt Cabot Trail.

That being said, I fully intend to avoid the Mount Cabot Trail. Since Mt Cabot Trail is off-limits, I'll simply take another route. Quite likely, I'll descend out past Unknown Pond to Stark, or maybe all the way to South Pond Rec Area.

No big deal; I was just asking.

 

[RoySwkr]

As for the rest of us, we've been asked to not use the trail by the landowner, the USFS, VFTT, the AMC, and I believe I read earlier, the local police.

I'm not aware that VFTT has any official position on the matter, and as far as I know the local police don't either. Many locals believe the landowner is in the wrong including those who apparently still offer signed parking for this trail.

What bothers me is that governments and land trusts are spending millions of dollars on easements in the belief that it will protect land forever. If we allow landowners to disallow those easements at will, we have blown that money on nothing. Until a court decides his easement does not apply to hikers, the landowner is acting unreasonably and perhaps illegally.

Do not hike this trail unless you are willing to be confronted by angry individuals, but don't think you are doing the world a favor by avoiding it.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Might it be better if David or Dug forwarded a printout of this thread to the AMC high-command with a request that all trip leaders representing the AMC adhere to AMC published guidelines? Perhaps they need to monitor the trips board to ensure no one is planning to violate their policies.

Not a bad idea. A small point here, but I've yet to see the AMC high-command get involved in matters such as this. They do, afterall, have a hospitality chain to run.

The individuals to contact are the "Excursions Chairperson" in each Chapter. These are the individuals charged with reviewing each of the hikes submitted by individual AMC trip leaders from their respective chapter. While they "should" know of trail closings, they're not infallible. If you're so inclined, they can be found listed in the AMC's monthly magazine, or browse to the Chapter website via the main AMC website. Look for listings such as "Excomm Members".