Mt. Madison rescue: why so much anger??

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I'm with Kevin on this one.

I'm also sick of the issue, and probably won't be reading these threads (about this particular rescue) anymore. I usually REALLY enjoy accident reports or case studies, both from natural (morbid?) curiosity and as a learning tool, but I think we've beaten this dead horse into the ground!
 
Thanks for all the good thinking and introspection on this topic. One of the things I like the most about this hiking community on these boards is its basic humanity, fundamental kindness and an ability to step back and gain perspective on some very important issues. While the first thread did spin out a bit, I think this one helped get things in proper perspective and also hit on some pretty important issues. Sometimes group process, especially on-line, can go in a negative direction, and other times it can lead to a higher place of understanding. This thread was the latter for me.

And now, I think I agree that we probably can put it to rest and go out on our next hike(s).
 
NewHampshire said:
I think the single best thing ANY "new", "inexperienced", "beginner", "newbie" hiker could do is set themselves up with someone who HAS the exparience.

I disagree. If I had waited around for some "expert" to teach me how to walk in the woods I never would have started.

The best way to learn about hiking is to get out there and do it. My first climb of a NH 4,000 footer many years ago was a complete disaster and a great learning experience as well, one of my favorite memories..... You learn as you go and you'll learn faster through your mistakes, which everyone makes..... it's part of what's called LIFE.

mavs00 said:
I don't judge, lest I be judged myself.....

Yes, and let he who is without sin cast the first stone....
 
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Kevin Rooney said:
Seriously - I used the term lists because that's how most hikers 'measure' their experience level. There are other measures as well. By the same token - there's a different level in expertise/competence depending upon how long someone takes to climb any given list. For example - I'd consider someone more knowledgeable if they completed the NE67 in say, 3 years, as opposed to 15.

Just wondering, Kevin.... How would you use this list as a criteria for BC expertise, especially when ALL of the New England 4,000 footers have trails to them? Faster = more knowledgeable?

I'm sure there are people that have gained quite a bit of experience in the BC without doing or being addicted to any lists, contrary to the impression one might get from websites such as this......
 
Lovetohike said:
Looking through the thread on the Madison rescue, I was struck by the intensity of the criticism and anger generated by this incident (as were some of the other posters). I want to throw out the question as to why so much intensity was generated? I believe that the criticism goes beyond what would be expected in response to a wide variety of annoying and bothersome things we run into on the trail: rude hikers, litter, poor care for the environment, dangerous situations caused by others, etc. So the answer to my question is not what bad judgment, poor choices or just plain stupid behavior was exhibited by the individuals involved, that's been gone over again and again. The answer is why that behavior creates such a huge (and in my view, excessive) response.
.

I don't have an answer, but the question has been in the back of my mind since you raised it. It popped up again when I was re-reading the story of Dr. Benjamin Ball, the Boston physician who set out to climb Mt. Washington in late October in the mid-1850s with nothing more than an overcoat, a hat, and, serendipitously, an umbrella. He did everything wrong, including ignoring classic advice not to climb higher because there was no shelter. He spent two nights out in a raging snowstorm, protected by his trusty umbrella, was stalked by a bear, almost bought the farm, or so his narrative says, but survived and went on to further mountain adventures.

When Henry David Thoreau read about the incident, he didn't see it as an epic of survival but as one of stupidity. He wrote the following in his journal:

[start quote] February 15, 1857
I have just been reading the account of Dr. Ball’s sufferings on the White Mountains. Of course, I do not wonder that he was lost. I should say: Never undertake to ascend a mountain or thread a wilderness where there is any danger of being lost, without taking thick clothing, partly india-rubber, if not a tent or material for one; the best map to be had and a compass; salt pork and hard-bread and salt; fish-hooks and lines; a good jack-knife, at least, if not a hatchet, and perhaps a gun; matches in a vial stopped water-tight; some strings and paper. Do not take a dozen steps which you could not with tolerable accuracy protract on a chart. I never do otherwise. Indeed, you must have been living all your life in some such methodical and assured fashion, though in the midst of cities, else you will be lost in spite of all this preparation. [end quote]

I'm going to guess that the above items were those that Thoreau himself carried on his Washington ascents (though I wonder about the fishing gear).
In any event, Ball's adventure became the pretext for Thoreau's inventory. It's not clear to me who Thoreau was fictionally writing to in his journal--himself, an imagined audience of climbers, posterity in general. I'd say himself.
 
Every time I bring my umbrella on a hike, I think of Dr. Ball!

:D :eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D
 
Did not read up on the "Rescue", but looking at this thread I do agree with Mr. Rooney. I also believe that we learn more from our mistakes then our successes. Was it Theodore Roosevelt who once said "Show me a person who has never made a mistake, and I will show you someone who has done nothing". I may be wrong on the phrase, but I will leave that up to the acedemic people in the crowd to correct. I do think it is great to observe all the different opinions however.
 
funkyfreddy said:
If I had waited around for some "expert" to teach me how to walk in the woods I never would have started. The best way to learn about hiking is to get out there and do it.

Here! Here!

The recent AMC Outdoors amused me with an article on how to walk. A week later I received a chapter newsletter with instructions on how to use hiking poles, they being the preferred gear over hiking sticks you pick up in the woods.

People who must rely on advice like that worry me. Not so much for the pickle they might get themselves in on the trail but the fact that one of 'em might be making a decision about my mortgage application, health care or tax bill.

These boys on Madison did some dumb things but to label them "idiots" is inappropriate ... unless they're making the same dumb choices that effect other people's lives ... then, there are even more descriptive words but I think it would be gracious to avoid such words in public and help make the world a little more congenial place.
 
a) some people are just negative, and like inexperienced hikers, they are ignorant of what they're doing wrong
b) as we become wiser, we become forgetful... of the fact that at one time we weren't so wise
 
Kevin Rooney said:
...By the same token - there's a different level in expertise/competence depending upon how long someone takes to climb any given list. For example - I'd consider someone more knowledgeable if they completed the NE67 in say, 3 years, as opposed to 15...

I would consider the 3-year person to have alot more FREE TIME than the 15-year person. But more expertise/competence? I wouldn't bet the rent on it. To build further on what FunkyFreddy said (I don't know how to quote more than one person in a thread...help!)...I'm sure we all know some people who are lightning-fast hikers and are devout, energetic list-keepers, and take pride (and rightfully so) in how quickly they can tick off a certain list...but would spiral downward into a complete panic if they ever got more than 100 feet off-trail. And since I don't personally know anyone on this board, it is impossible for what I just said to be a personal attack against anyone.
 
Just a week or so ago a "experienced hiker" ,with 20+ years of hiking experience, got lost in the 5 Ponds wilderness area in the Adirondacks. The article told of how he new the area real well, but wandered off the trail into a blowdown area and got turned around. He ended up on the bank of the Oswegatchi river, dehydated but OK. Experienced hikers are not the same as experienced woodsmen/women. Take the trail away, and then we can see who can navigate. What I am trying to say, is, no matter who you think you are "stuff happens" regardless of however many years one has under their belt. Maybe critics of the "rescue" would do well on ESPN's "Monday Morning Quarterback" show as analysts :D
 
I agre with Kevin and I think list are not what makes experience but they get you out there as does just hiking without list. The point to me is stuff has to happen to you, Im talking bad stuff, thats how you gain experience. Storms, injuries, getting lost, encounters with aggressive wildlife, these are just some of what forces you to learn adapt and become "seasoned" in the BC. Someone can go out and bag the 4k's 3 times for that matter but if they are always done in good weather with nothing signifigent happening from one to another your just not learning much as you go in regards to epics.
I think when you spend years in the backcountry in all seasons you cannot avoid things "hitting the fan" and its during those incidents that you learn not only how to react but to react and lesson the suffering that you living through.
This is no slight to inexperienced hikers by any means but really, take the madison epic for example. There are many on this site and yes I will include myself ;) that would have been in Gorham that night eating pizza and having a beer versas being rescued, that is the difference between inexperience and experience.
I think its interesting to note that people seem to think calling someone inexperienced is an insult, it is not, just an observation, I mean we all have are places on the food chain so to speak, it is what it is, you dont have to like where you are but if your smart you will accept it and hike and act acoordingly in bad situations.
 
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