Mt. Washington Via Huntington Ravine - Descent Left Gully

[cbcbd]

Thanks for the support from someone who actually read the Trip Report at the bottom of the page. By the way, those Pitons are in there GOOD and not going ANYWHERE.

Anytime

Camp Bulldogs. www.gearx.com had them for about $50. I could not pass them up, as they had their tent sale with an extra %20 off. I was buying my rack at the same time, so I snuck in some winter gear on the bill, saved a ton of $$ on the axes, snow pickets, and screws. I needed the stuff for CO anyway.

Wow, sweet deal! Gear Exchange rocks!! If you haven't gone to their store in Burlington you should. I only had a few minutes in there but it was like paradise - I need to go back for a lengthier visit.

 

[giggy]

If you head over to Rockclimbing.com and search on "chordolette" you will find considerable contraversy concerning their use. The thing with chords is that after you tie the power knot, you are stuck at that angle, so if you get pulled left or right the other "arms" of the anchor take increased load. I have all but hung up my chordolette, prefering Trango's "Alpine anchor" instead: Two loops of titanium and enough runner for for 3 protection points. If you tie a knot in one protection point it provides considerable security against shock loading (RE) while also giving you some flexability angle-wise. I usually figure eight the center point when Im on the rock. Its worth the $30, even if only for ease of use.

-chris

thanks chris/doug
will have to look into this more. I guess I am refering a simple decent belay anchor that will work for most situation on snow and/or ice. I guess it could have limited equalization if not tied properly, but my guess it would be enough to hold most falls and certailly falls on snow and low angled ice - I would think! Its interesting cuz in the classes I have taken, this was always the preffered anchor method with 2 or more pieces of pro for most belay stations. like anything - there is always controversy and god knows, I am a novice with this stuff - good conversation.

 

[DougPaul]

Thanks for the support from someone who actually read the Trip Report at the bottom of the page. By the way, those Pitons are in there GOOD and not going ANYWHERE.

If you are talking about the pin anchor in the picture:

Looked to me like old fixed pins (had some rust on them) with rapel slings.

I probably would have tested them (using a hammer), reset them if need be, and rigged them with biners (to the pins) and a figure-8 self-equalizing (new) sling if using them as a belay point. (Slings tied directly into the pin are generally ok for rapel but a bit weak for a belay point.)

Don't know if the red sling was yours or in situ. Nylon degrades rapidly in the sun. (I would have replaced the sling if it was in situ.)

In any case, one does the best he can with what is available and moves on...

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Its interesting cuz in the classes I have taken, this was always the preffered anchor method with 2 or more pieces of pro for most belay stations. like anything - there is always controversy and god knows, I am a novice with this stuff - good conversation.

Pretty much all anchors (except maybe a big tree ) and rigging systems have their pros and cons. It is easy to rule some methods out as being vastly inferior to the alternatives but there is room for disagreement about some of the better methods. And there are sometimes subtle things going on that are not obvious except after an accident or rigorous testing.

FWIW, for 2-point anchors, I generally prefer a figure-8 self-equalizing sling over a cordolette. Rigging gets a bit more complicated for 3 or more points...

Doug

 

[percious]

I new the red sling/rap ring was new because I was up on central in January, and there was purple cordelette up there. Would I trust my life on rock to a 2 inch sling that was 3 months old, maybe. In an alpine setting where the fall index is much lower, definitely.

I did wiggle the pitons with my fingers to see if there was any movement. None. I would not recommend taking a hammer to them, because you are more likely to do harm then good. Keep in mind also that Erich and I ran out the previous section, so I wasn't all that worried about the result of a possible fall.

-percious

 

[DougPaul]

I new the red sling/rap ring was new because I was up on central in January, and there was purple cordelette up there. Would I trust my life on rock to a 2 inch sling that was 3 months old, maybe. In an alpine setting where the fall index is much lower, definitely.

Two people plus a moderate shock load can easily reach 1000 lbs. Up to 3 months old. (Looks like 1 inch sling from the picture.) Looks new in the picture, but I can't tell if it has stiffened. (IIRC, even new-looking nylon can be signifcantly degraded by UV exposure.) I probably would have replaced it, but I wasn't there--your choice.

I did wiggle the pitons with my fingers to see if there was any movement. None. I would not recommend taking a hammer to them, because you are more likely to do harm then good.

Early in my climbing career, I was taught how to test pins by someone who used to climb when pins were the main form of protection. You need a hammer to test them properly and, if need be, reset them.

A pin which fails the finger test is clearly very loose. A pin which passes a finger test can still be very weak--the top piece of pro can receive up to ~3000 lbs force in a fall. You need to be able to apply forces of similar magnitude to properly asses the holding power of the pin. Modern chrom-moly steel pins can handle the punishment of testing--if not, they are severely damaged and should be replaced.

BTW, pins can spontaneously loosen simply due to thermal cycling of the rock...

Doug

 

[el-bagr]

I couldn't tell from the video "Perfect Self Arrest Technique (movie)" whether you had crampons on for the self arrest. If you did, the fall was slow enough that they weren't a problem when you kicked your toes in -- soft snow, low angles. You undoubtedly know this, but for anyone else who's watching, I'd recommend digging the knees in, not the toes, until you're at a complete stop. You are likely to be wearing crampons when you take a fall, but one must weigh (1) being able to stop easier if you kick your toes in vs (2) breaking a leg or starting to ragdoll.

But you knew that! Nice trip.

 

[percious]

I couldn't tell from the video "Perfect Self Arrest Technique (movie)" whether you had crampons on for the self arrest. If you did, the fall was slow enough that they weren't a problem when you kicked your toes in -- soft snow, low angles. You undoubtedly know this, but for anyone else who's watching, I'd recommend digging the knees in, not the toes, until you're at a complete stop. You are likely to be wearing crampons when you take a fall, but one must weigh (1) being able to stop easier if you kick your toes in vs (2) breaking a leg or starting to ragdoll.

But you knew that! Nice trip.

From what I have read/seen, you only kick your feet in once you have stopped, which is exactly how I performed the arrest. You NEVER want to use your cramponed feet while you are moving, as this can lead to the above. Ice axe alone is usually enough to stop you, even on steep terrain. I proved this to myself on Left Gully, which by the way, was a hoot!

-percious

 

[DougPaul]

From what I have read/seen, you only kick your feet in once you have stopped, which is exactly how I performed the arrest. You NEVER want to use your cramponed feet while you are moving, as this can lead to the above. Ice axe alone is usually enough to stop you, even on steep terrain. I proved this to myself on Left Gully, which by the way, was a hoot!

I was taught to use axe and toes if not wearing crampons and axe and knees (holding my feet up away from the snow) if wearing crampons.

Toes plus crampons is a good way to break one's ankles and/or get flipped if they catch.

I suspect that whether the ice axe alone is sufficient depends on the grade and the condition of the surface. I'd prefer to have my reflexes trained to use everything that might help--a fast arrest is more likely to be successful than a slow one.

Doug

 

[percious]

I was taught to use axe and toes if not wearing crampons and axe and knees (holding my feet up away from the snow) if wearing crampons.

Toes plus crampons is a good way to break one's ankles and/or get flipped if they catch.

I suspect that whether the ice axe alone is sufficient depends on the grade and the condition of the surface. I'd prefer to have my reflexes trained to use everything that might help--a fast arrest is more likely to be successful than a slow one.

Doug

Indeed, knees are used *while* aresting NOT the feet! Once you have stopped it is good to dig in in case you have pulled your friends from the mountain.

This link is enlightening.
http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Photos_SnowClimbing_IceAxe.htm

-percious

 

[DougPaul]

Indeed, knees are used *while* aresting NOT the feet! Once you have stopped it is good to dig in in case you have pulled your friends from the mountain.

This link is enlightening.
http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Photos_SnowClimbing_IceAxe.htm

Experts disagree:

* Your legs are stiff and spread apart, toes digging in. If your are wearing crampons, dig in with your knees and keep your toes off the snow. Crampon points can catch on hard snow or ice and flip you over backward, out of control.

Arch the body so that its whole weight is on the toes and the axe. ... Spread your feet for balance. Your are stable on three points of support: an axe and two feet. (If you are wearing crampons, however, having your feet down will flip you over backwards, so you must use your knees instead. This will take some practice to remember.)

Doug

 

[percious]

Yes, you are right. WHILE you are moving. Once you STOP, you should DIG IN.

-percious.

 

[giggy]

Yes, you are right. WHILE you are moving. Once you STOP, you should DIG IN.

-percious.

I would agree - like everything else there are diff ways to do things and doing my part in continuing to beat this topic to death - I will add that it depends on the focus of the self arrest - if your on a rope team and your arresting anothers fall - you are stopped, and even if you have crampons on - you should get in the positions and kick your feet with spikes in to create a solid anchor and hope to god you stop them.

I have heard/read conflicting reports on the knees - if you got gore-tex on, its like ice on ice - good luck trying to stop with your knees - the key to self arrest is to stop quick (this invloves kicking feet in) before you build up speed - I think this point gets left behind alot as you always see people practicing in long run outs, and arresting after the bulid up speed, I think the self belay and getting into the "controled self arrest position" is way more important than recall to kick or not kick your feet in while tumpbling down a slope - if yout going that fast, you git bigger problems than a broken ankles!!

While, I do practice with no spikes on - I always questioned this - becuase it really isn't realisitc - 90% of the time, your going to have them on when climbing.

 

[Bob]

Yeah- in a 'real' (vs. practice) self arrest situation, you want to stop IMMEDIATELY. Without thinking about it, at any cost...

 

[Woody]

Bomber

I just have to add my 2 cents about the piton anchor in the picture. Since I used that same anchor myself in early April, I can attest that it is quite bomber for the situation that it will be used for. It is not in an situation that it would take a factor 2 fall since it is on a 50 degree slope and not a vertical wall. I would readily rappel from that anchor as well if I thought I needed to.

Nice trip report and pictures!

 

[jjo]

Excellent pics!!!