Mud Season Ethics

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What is your response to mud season?

  • I stay off any unpaved roads and soft trails until they dry out enough to minimize erosion damage.

    Votes: 15 14.0%
  • I stay off all soft trails until they dry out; I drive slowly on unpaved roads to minimize damage.

    Votes: 15 14.0%
  • I walk down the middle of muddy trails, to avoid further damage on the margins. I drive at normal s

    Votes: 54 50.5%
  • I walk on the sides of muddy trails, so I can avoid the mud.

    Votes: 12 11.2%
  • I can\'t wait for mud season to start, so I can rip up the roads on my ATV.

    Votes: 2 1.9%
  • I can\'t wiat for mud season to start, so I can rip up the roads and trails on my ATV while I spray

    Votes: 9 8.4%

  • Total voters
    107
Education is Key

I believe that education is very important with regards to mud season ethics. If I can eduacte and convince just one hiker not to hike on delicate trails during mud season, then I can legitimize hiking on these trails myself, since the net effect is a wash.

Just think, if we all convinced one other hiker not to hike during mud season, then we could all hike during mud season without it weighing on our conscience.

John
 
Re: Education is Key

Johnnycakes said:
Just think, if we all convinced one other hiker not to hike during mud season, then we could all hike during mud season without it weighing on our conscience.

Sounds like a pyramid scam to me :p

j/k

I agree Johnnycakes, one reason I'm staying off the high peaks trails right now. :)

There's a lot more to hike in the off-peakbagging season. Visited some waterfalls last weekend, with more low-lander hiking in central New York scheduled for this weekend. There's definitely more to the outdoors than mountain climbing, and I get to appreciate some of it free of black flies during this stretch of springtime.
 
Peter Miller said:

Nearly all trails in the Whites are severely eroded. We take the rocks and roots for granted, but the terrain wasn't this way when Edmands and his cohorts did the pioneer trail building in the Presidentials. (cut, paste and rearrange a bit....)Treadways need to be refilled and hardened, trails need to be better engineered for water runoff control, and some trails need to be completely rerouted - better routes exist, and putting severely eroded trails to bed allows nature to eventually heal itself.

This is an interesting assertion that, in my mind, raises an interesting question about land management.

Q: Is it better to distribute impact or is it better to localize impact?

Clearly the answers depend on the frequency of use and the land types, so no hard and fast rules that apply in all conditions can be found. Still, I think this has bearing here.

Given the amount of traffic in the Whites and the reasonable assumption that traffic will continue to creep upwards, I think localization of impact is the on sensible approach, both in terms of trail routing and campsite locations. 2 quick examples....

1) I would rather see one totally hammered, root and rock infested trench called a trail (think Valley Way or Lowe's Path) than to see these trails rerouted. Given the amount of damage already done, I don't see these trails recovering anytime in my children's lifetime.

2) I've never understood the arguement for instituting RUAs in the Whites with respect to campsites. In particular, I don't see the wisdom of covering up common-use campsites just off trail often found just below treeline. I would rather a single totally hammered campsite that is commonly used than see the general degradation that comes when too many people thrash about in the boreal forest trying to get far enough off trail to be "legal".

Peter Miller said:
The White's trails are long overdue for repair. Back when parking passes were instituted, I thought the money was going to be used toward this end.

Naw. I don't think anybody really believed that. As is often the case with such fees (parking meters, bus and train fares, highway tolls), the fee programs are often revenue neutral or just barely profitable. Remember, you need to spend a significant amount of money to collect and enforce the fees.

The goal of the fee program was to get people used to paying fees. This way they could, in the words of one USFS top dog, make the USFS brand like the Disney or McDonalds of outdoor recreation. This effort was backed big time by a) motorized recreational groups who saw an opportunity to get increased access for their constinuents (snowmobiles, ATVs) who are already used to paying $$s for licenses and fees and b) industrial camping companies like KOA, SAMs who saw a chance of acquiring the management rights for USFS campgrounds.

In terms of budget while the fee program was pitched as providing funds for trails and such, any revenues they got or will get are only just replacing what was previously cut. In fact, many have argued that Gingrich and company intentionally slashed USFS funding to create a huge, percieved need for the fees. If any of the fee demo money has made it into USFS coffers (unclear), those revenues would only replace what as previously taken away.
 
Yowza, Dave,

"Perceived" needs are not always vapor. I guess paying my way, and living with folks who have and do things I don't (snowmobile, ATVs, boomboxes -- dare I say it -- dogs, etc.) isn't a knee-jerk revulsion for me (I know, I already pay taxes, just not enough/too much). I suppose I would like subsidized lumber companies to pull their own weight, too -- though my house is expensive enough w/o them jacking material costs (I know, I know, it's mostly labor!).

Gosh, this was a nice little mud discussion til you guys, uh, muddied the mud! ;-)

Thank God for cable TV in the spring and early summer. Mud and bugs allow me to pretend to take an ethical high road by staying off trails I wouldn't touch if you paid me, at least, not until July.
 
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Originally posted by afka_bob I guess paying my way, and living with folks who have and do things I don't (snowmobile, ATVs, boomboxes -- dare I say it -- dogs, etc.) isn't a knee-jerk revulsion for me (I know, I already pay taxes, just not enough/too much).

Cool. It's not a revulsion of mine either.

In terms of "paying my way" for things like trail maintenance... It's not a question of IF (we have and do) but a question of HOW (fees vs taxes). In deferance to Darren's "NO Politics" rule, which I've already violated, I'll shut up on the pros and cons here.

I'' only mention that "Filters Against Folly" by Garritt Hardin has a good discussion on this. I'll loan it to you next time you're down to the house.

In terms of access... I'm happy to share access to lands with pretty much all comers. As you know, I'm very happy to share trails with snowmobilers!!

The question is how should access be granted? As a concrete example, would you approve the use of snowmobiles or ATV on the Rocky Branch trail? It's not an official "Wilderness" area (at least south of the shelter and Stair Mtn trail) so it's not inconcievable.

How this balance is struck is a land management decision and that decision process will be heavily altered if access is tied to fee revenues. Participants of motorized sports have, almost by definition, demonstrated a pretty high ability for paying fees as shown by the high costs of their equipment and licensing and such. As a hiker, I'm not sure I want to get into a 1 dollar = 1 vote type of arms race with that lobby.

Odd "talking" about this stuff here instead of the car on the trail, eh?
 
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Yeah, it is (but you really should stop taking your car on the trail -- pisses off the snowmobiler no end!).

As far as public lands/public schools go, no one is required to recreate on public lands, everybody is required to go to school (of some kind) up to a certain age, so I find recreation fees vs. school tuition to be substantially different matters. And to get way off topic, I want everyone to go to school -- I really don't want everybody to show up on the trails, at least not all at once.

Also, I don't object to fees in principle -- moderate and/or reasonable fees for the things I use are OK with me. Why should I subsidize waterskiiers on Lake Powell ? If I go there, I'll pay, and I don't mind if those boaters aren't charged to build or maintain trails and shelters in the White Mnts. -- unless they want to use them.

As far as deep motorized pockets, were there a system of assessing user impact and charging by that real impact and associated costs, I don't think I would fight it.

And I agree that impact to a specific area should be carefully considered. There are places people shouldn't walk, too, much less ride.

Sharing trails does involve, well, sharing. I could see restricting all groups in some specific areas -- maybe there should be some snowmobile-only trails in season.

Rocky Branch? I've walked over snowmobile tracks before. Is it restricted?

I always thought (the few times I thought about it) postage was (in theory, at least) related to the cost of delivering a letter.

I'm a big fan of folks covering their own costs. All of them. I had a chuckle at a recent guided snowshoe walk for the Pascatquog Watershed Association (name might be incorrect, but it's close). The guide derided the present Administration's stand on the environment, citing damage to trees and animals. Most folks took major pokes at the President's politics and person, lots of "no blood for oil" stuff. When they got back to the parking lot, they (nearly all) got back in their big SUVs (no more than two to a vehicle, most only one) and drove home, feeling good that they were doing good things for the watershed --- those that actually donated some funds, and the others for their warm wishes and correct political views. I wonder how many of them drove back to multi-vehicle garages tacked onto 3,000+ sq.ft. houses on over-fertized-and-pest-sprayed five-acre lots? More power to 'em, really, but they ought to figure out which side they are really on. In their defense, they probably heat at least part of those big houses with wood-burning stoves. What's that got, something like 15 lbs. of air pollution for every 100 lbs. of wood burned? Oh, well, at least the Expedition gets something in the teens-to-the-gallon. If they ever drove it under 75 mph with both hands on the wheel. But I quibble -- these people mean well, even if their lifestyles don't readily show it. Perhaps they have unplumbed depths.

In summary, I quess I think people should be ethical, and it should apply to mud season, too.

And thanks for explaining parking meters to me. ;-)
 
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afka_bob said:
Yeah, it is (but you really should stop taking your car on the trail -- pisses off teh snowmobiler no end!).

Isn't that the point?

Originally posted by afka_bob
In summary, I quess I think people should be ethical, and it should apply to mud season, too.

(trying to steer a course back on-topic...)

Right. But what does that look like?

Can somebody explain why the RMC is silent on the issue of mud season hiking in the Presis?
See: http://www.randolphmountainclub.org/trails/leavenotrace.html

I'm not seeing anything on the AMC website either but may not be looking in the right spot:
http://www.outdoors.org/education/lnt/lnt-principles.shtml

Here is another link from the AMC web site. Again, no clear prohibition.
http://www.outdoors.org/trails/spring-trail-care.shtml

Is there something substantially different about the Whites compared to Greens or 'Daks such as the extent of existing damage (possibly rendering the discussion pointless)?
 
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I've heard this general term of 'mud season' but I cannot seem to find it on any calendar. When exactly is this season? How is it that you determine the start date and end date of this season? And would the start and end dates differ as you move up in elevation? Because dry trails at 1500 feet could also mean muddy trails at 2500 feet and snow covered trails at 3500 feet. So, would that mean you could only climb to a certain elevation and then turn around once you hit the muddy areas? Would it be at the same time in the Northern Presidentials as on Passaconaway’s and Whiteface’s southern trails? Could some governing body call an 'out of season' Mud Season during an unnecessarily period of heavy rain, say in September? What do we do if there is an exceptionally snowy winter and the trails stay really muddy for two weeks after the end of the official Mud Season? What do we do in a lean snow year when the trails are bone dry two weeks before the official end of Mud Season? What do we do when the south facing trails are dry two weeks before the north facing trails. How do you coordinate this and get consensus among the myriad groups who maintain the trails? Can you bushwhack during Mud Season?

Just curious how this would all work out.

JohnL
 
JohnL said:
I've heard this general term of 'mud season' but I cannot seem to find it on any calendar. When exactly is this season? How is it that you determine the start date and end date of this season? And would the start and end dates differ as you move up in elevation?
JohnL

The Vermonters have it worked out (sort of). From HikeVermont.com:

Mud Season
As temperatures warm and snow melts, winter turns to mud season. Mud season extends from mid-April through the end of May. It arrives in the lowest elevations first then slowly moves to higher elevations. Trail conditions vary from year to year.

The State of Vermont closes trails on Camel's Hump and Mt. Mansfield until Memorial Day to protect the fragile alpine areas. Hikers are encouraged to stay in the lower elevations and to avoid Stratton Mountain, Killington-Pico, Appalachian to Lincoln Gaps and Jay Peak.

Mud Season Guidelines
The Green Mountain Club and the State of Vermont encourage hikers to:

* stay below 1000 feet until May 1
* stay below 2000 feet until May 15
* stay below 3000 feet until Memorial Day


(This is why they're allowed to vote in this poll only from mid-April to Memorial Day.) I'll leave it to the New Yawkers to describe their scheme.

There is nothing official in the Granite-Headed State. (State Motto: "Live free and die; we refuse even to enact any seasonal ban on studded tires.")

Don't know nuthin' 'bout the Mainiacs' perspective. Anybody?
 
I've been hiking for 30 years but am a newbie to the east (3 yrs). Is mud avoidance to save the trails a recent development? Honestly, I would never have worried about it.
Staying off the trails until they dry out does zip for the "ecology". However, it makes sense for easier hiking later in the season. Do the people who recommend staying off the trails in mud season hike when it rains? I've hiked through quagmires in July and my boots have left some ugly holes in the mud but I've never felt like I was wrecking something. After all the trails must represent less than a billionth of a per cent of the surface area of the area they go through.
Does this mean I should stay home all through April and May? One could argue a case that trail conservationists and black flies have a symbiosis thing going.
 
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[to be read with a smile, not a scowl]

I always work out from the assumption that any rule, guideline, recommendation, or request that is inconvenient to me is probably not valid. Not much of a standard, I admit, but I do have one.

As far as trail-widening (from stepping on drier edges of wet trails) goes, since everybody here (me included) steps in the middle of every wet trail, no matter how deep (always, with every step), it must be somebody else who widens those trails. And since those trails represent (I'm told by experienced hikers) a billionth of a percent of the surface area of the area one is going through, heck, why not double or triple their width? That would only amount to about two-to-three-billionths of a percent, and think of the convenience. If they just went ahead and paved them, it wouldn't be such a problem, anyway.

I know several outdoors people with more than thirty years experience on the trails who think nothing of cutting a soft bed of pine boughs to sleep on, after digging a drainage trench around their bedsite -- and what is a campsite without a roaring fire, especially after slogging through all that mud all day?

I guess someone could make an argument that if you wouldn't want somebody walking in the muddy bare patches of your yard and making them bigger (or MAKING muddy hole in your lawn where there weren't any before) , or parking in the muddy, rutted roadside edge of your lawn, you probably shouldn't do the same on the trail and at trailheads. If you saw my yard and its mud and ruts, you will understand why I do not (make that argument).

"Leave nothing but deep, muddy footprints and widened trails, take nothing from nobody."
 
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NeilL said:
Does this mean I should stay home all through April and May?

I can only speak of NY and the way the DEC does things. In their press release:

http://newmud.comm.uottawa.ca/~pete/DECmud.txt

they suggest other areas to hike. The DEC does seem to have a problem getting this information out. They still seem to work by sending press releases to newspapers.

Also, the mud season is not a specific set of dates. They get reports from rangers, and set times according to that. Of course there is still some granularity problems. Some trails may be in good condition earlier than others. The ideal case would be for them to have seperate dates for each trail, but they don't.
 
[ If they just went ahead and paved them, it wouldn't be such a problem, anyway.[/B]

NOW your talking! Actually, I know of two places where this has been done: Yosemite and Lake Louise, Canada. In the latter case I would call it a success as I have hiked the trail in question many times
[/B][/QUOTE]I know several outdoors people with more than thirty years experience on the trails who think nothing of cutting a soft bed of pine boughs to sleep on, after digging a drainage trench around their bedsite -- and what is a campsite without a roaring fire, especially after slogging through all that mud all day?[/B][/QUOTE]
Indeed, I have done these things myself, however in areas so remote and unvisited that it didn't matter. It would be unthinkable in other more frequented and vulnerable areas.

As for the billionth of a per cent I reviewed my data and confess that I may be out by a few hundreths of a per cent. :) Your point is a good one: how wide a trail is too wide and ugly?
 
I don't know about the ATV bashing, you all traveling here long distances to bag peaks do more to further erode the dwindling natural resources of the nation and increase the strain the local area than a guy on his ATV on the DEC approved trails. Not to mention I haven't seen any ATV's ever approach the nuymber of animal kills that the honda, subaru, and jeep drivers have amassed.

I don't have an ATV, obviously, but don't see why that is two snide choices and these aren't:

---I like to tear the hell out of everything with my mtn bike at mud time

--- I prefer to dislodge lichens and mosses, and other plants by rock climbing during mud season.

---- I don't hike in mud because I am a environmentalist: I just come up to drive around degrading the local road system and seeing how much money I caused the locals to shell out fixing the guardrail I hit in winter, the signs I stole, and I like to watch their trees on the down hill side of the road die from all the salt I caused to be spread all winter while doing my " Non-Consumptive" hobby of hiking all winter.

sorry for the flames, but I can't stand the "ugg, Locals with ATV's are bad, ugg" mentality when it seems so easy for tourists to ignore the damage they do here while tricking themselves into believing they are Earth Friendly bunny huggers.

I'd love to see how beautiful it would be here just to shut the place down to non-locals for three full years. the lack of smog and engine fumes alone would be incredible.
 
JJ,

If you would keep me informed as to your whereabouts, I would be happy to stay at least fifty miles away at all times.

And during those three years of no outsiders, would you also take down your satellite dish and only use propane drilled out of your backyard? I'll bet the money we tourists spend in Palookaville more than pays for the bent guardrails.

And please reciprocate by staying out of the metropolis during that time. It will be nice not having to hose you guys out of my grill just 'cause you don't know how to look both ways before you cross a street. ;)

Agree with much of the mtnbike swipe, BTW.

Just sign me,

Tourist (easy to spot us, we have most of our teeth :D )
 
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Can't say w/o knowing who or what you are referring to (Terry and Bronu).
 
Wouldn't blame anybody for living there and, in fact, I envy them. Also don't blame you for being sick of tourists.

However, that park exists because of all the taxpayers of the state of New York, and it would be pretty tough to support the services (plowing, road access, stores, etc.) that are available to such a remote area without the tourists.

I would hope that no one feels that they have more of a claim than anyone else on the right and priviledge to enjoy public land, no matter where they live. I would also hope that everyone who does choose to enjoy that right and priviledge, would accept the responsibilty of stewardship for those lands and behave accordingly.
 
Mud season

= motorcycle riding for me. Looooooong rides like the one I took Friday : 330 miles in the Whites including a Kanc traverse ! It is good to be lazy after a season of training and climbing. I give the high peaks the break they (and I!) deserve.
 
closed trails

I was wondering if the trails that are closed (such as Camel's Hump) during mud season are patrolled or if they are left to the public to abide by the rules. Are there fines or punishments? Personally I think there should be, but I was wondering what you guys thought on the topic.
 
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