Mystery flower id request (Asiatic Bittersweet?)

[Mark Schaefer]

Perhaps one of our botanists can id this. Any id help would be greatly appreciated. You can click the thumbnails for larger images.

I found about 50-60 of these flowers strewn on the ground following a night of rain. The location is the Esopus Bend Nature Preserve in Saugerties NY. The flower is about 2 inches at the widest part of the fluted/trumpet opening. The entire flower is one flute/trumpet petal. They appear similar to foxglove orchids.

The only white flower source I could see after visually scouring the area was about 30-40 feet above the ground (not very clear given the distance and breeze from an approaching thunder storm):

I had thought that the male and female flowers of Asiatic Bittersweet were yellow/green. So perhaps these flowers are on one of the host trees or another climbing plant.

This nature preserve is overgrown with several invasive foreign plants from nearby 19th and early 20th century estates and farms. The elevation is about 60' above sea level, near the mouth of the Esopus Creek (one of the primary streams of the Catskills that flows to the Hudson River). The location is an old floodplain and above a 19th century mill dam.

I uploaded a short gallery of images of the Asiatic Bittersweet vines and berries (photographed over the last couple of years). Some sources indicate the vines are 2-4" in diameter. However, I have seen examples 8-10" in diameter. They can weave a ghoulish tangled web, like a scene from a Brothers Grimm tale. They climb on one tree and then often transfer onto another tree. They twist and run rings, and sometimes appear to strangle and choke their hosts. If there is no tree available they will entwine one of their own branches or a nearby sibling. It can become quite incestuous.. Often the original host is no longer present, and you are left to ponder how such an ogre was reared. Enter the slide show or to enter the gallery via this thumbnail:


The other primary invasive in the Preserve is Multiflora Rose (from China):

Along with Asiatic Bittersweet they are now endemic throughout the entire Hudson Valley and elsewhere. I doubt they could ever be eradicated. We and they have a shared history. We (even Native Americans) were once invasive to North America, and we are not leaving either. The Bittersweet berries and the multiflora are many. We bipeds are relatively few. So I council peace in our time within certain limits. We are now all fellow natives of North America.

 

[nartreb]

Asiatic bittersweet flowers are small and unobtrusive. Your impression is a viny mass; you often see the berries (especially once they turn red-orange) but you rarely notice the flowers at all. It's a tough vine, hard to pull down, hard to uproot, it grows back from small fragments, and it produces huge amounts of seed.

I can't see the full-size photo, but what I can make out is consistent with my first guess when I saw the bloom. Unfortunately I don't know the name of the tree, but it's a broad-leaved tree with big clusters of white flowers. The flowers tend to drop all at the same time, turning into a slimy mess under the tree after a few days. The seed pods are a foot or two long, maybe half an inch in diameter, and smooth.

Found it: it's a catalpa!

 

[carole]

flower of the common catalpa tree (catalpa bignonioides)

 

[Mark Schaefer]

Thanks Carole and natreb! It does appear to be the flower of the Southern Catalpa. Another Wikipedia reference. Now I plan to locate and positively id the specific tree in the Preserve.

I am quite certain that I have seen these flowers elsewhere on the grounds of one of the "Great Estates" here in the Hudson Valley. The grounds of a private estate in Saugerties are within a quarter mile of the Esopus Bend Nature Preserve and the flowers that I found. I have long believed that escapees from this estate were the source of the invasive species in this preserve. Quite likely the Catalpa came from there also.

 

[nartreb]

Now that I'm no longer behind the DNS filter at my workplace, I can see the full-size version of the "only white flower source" picture. It doesn't show catalpa at all, it shows something in the rose family (almost certainly multiflora, given the clusters of around ten large flowers). The only leaves I can see in the shot seem to be from the roses, though there are some thick woody vines in the background that are surely bittersweet, and some of the woody branches visible might be from the original host tree.

The white blossom on the ground is definitely catalpa, though. When you go back the flowers will probably be gone from the catalpa tree, but look for long tubular seed pods (like mangrove seed pods).

 

[Mark Schaefer]

I went back on Friday afternoon shortly after posting. I easily found the Catalpa tree. The base of the trunk shows that distinctly southern and slightly tropical spread.

Both the base of the trunk and the bark match the detail pictures here. The online reference is for the Northern Catalpa. However, the Southern Catalpa has the same appearance; just with different measurements.

There were also more flowers on the nearby ground.

The flowers are closer to 1.5 (not 2) inches in width indicating that they are the smaller blossoms of the Southern Catalpa (Catalpa bignonioides) rather than the larger 2-2.25 inch Northern Catalpa (Catalpa speciosa) blossoms. All the other relevant tree measurements also tend to indicate Southern Catalpa. In addition all of the online references seem to indicate that Southern rather than the hardier Northern Catalpa were introduced as an ornamental into the northeast US.

OK, concerning the flowers in the tree. I agree with natreb and Barkingcat that they appear to be complex leaves and blossoms. The leaves also have teeth. It is probably Multiflora Roses which are prolific in this Preserve. I also found a better angle to photograph them in close proximity to the Catalpa Tree. I thought I had seen the distinctive Catalpa markings and bell shape on some blossoms in the camera viewfinder. But when I reviewed my many photos I fail to find them. I can only see what appear to be Multiflora Roses and the rose hips left behind after the blossoms dropped.

The rose blossoms are about 20-25 feet above the ground (rather than my first estimate of 30-40 feet above the ground). It is somewhat surprising that the roses would climb this high, but I suppose anything is possible in this overgrown jungle.

I have not spied the Catalpa seed pods yet. Perhaps the all of the Catalpa vegetation is yet higher, mostly blocked from view by the rose and bittersweet growth. This Preserve is not far from home, and I often come here in the early evening to photograph. So I will keep looking. Hopefully I will find time to upload and post some additional flower and fern photographs from this and other nature preserves soon. I have been too busy photographing.

Now that I know the location of the Catalpa Tree, next year I intend to photograph the panicles of white bell Catalpa flowers while they are still on the tree. Admittedly it would be easier to photograph Catalpa blossoms in a more open location, and I know I have seen solitary Catalpa trees elsewhere in the Hudson Valley. But I have become quite enraptured with this Nature Preserve and would like to photograph them here to fully document the Preserve.

Thanks again for the flower id help.