Mystery pits on Van Wyck (Catskills)

[erd]

A small group of VFTT and 3500 Club members explored Van Wyck, Table and Peekamoose yesterday. I was able to show the two plane wrecks on that peak, and also one of the odder features that I know in this region.

Just below the summit knob of VW (a nice scramble), at about 2700 feet there is a small level area, on which are two deep pits side by side, about fifteen to twenty feet deep, and perhaps the same in diameter. They appear to have been dug. Unusually for elevation in the Catskills, there is deep soil at that point (I think there was a glacial dam here), but even so, the task of construction must have been onerous.

I think that this ridge (which leads up from the Peekmoose Road was extensively farmed, but this is right at the extreme limit of viability. No minerals in the area to be mined, these were not dug for livestock (too deep), no evidence of charcoal... About the only thing I can think of that might have been pulled out of here is the soil itself, but this seems unlikely.

Does anyone have any reasonable theories (or, better still, facts) as to why these might have been dug? We have covered flying saucers, underground denizens and other fancies pretty thoroughly...

Ted.

 

[hermit]

Hi Ted,
I went back to Van Wyck yesterday 4-16 and met 2 locals on top. I asked the question about what the pits were.And they replied ,oh you mean the copper mines.That's about all I got from them for info..I am still not convinced that's what they are.I did find the 2 plane crashes with no problems.

 

[erd]

Hi Ralph,

I spent yesterday doing Shingle Gully, the ice cave and other points in Sam's Point Preserve. An exciting hike. Twisted my knee slightly when I suddenly broke through deep snow in a crevasse, so I'm sitting it out today (no damage done, I think, but I want to let it settle).

If those are copper mines I'll eat my hat. Copper ore (usually malachite) is green, and I don't believe the geology of the region is such that we have any. There was certainly none there--I'd have spotted it in a trice. Someone would have to be pretty deluded to dig there for it.

I e-mailed Pete Fish, who used to be the ranger there way back. He doesn't know, but suggests fill pits. That makes a certain amount of sense. Because that's a glacial notch where an ice-dam was, there's deep soil, or so it seems to me. Possible someone (when the area was clear) bought a wagon up and scooped out some of that for their tatie patch.

I hope to contact Steve Preston next week, the last ranger. He was interested in the history of that area.

Regards,

Ted.

 

[funkyfreddy]

Hi Ted + Ralph, I would like to explore the area around the mountain more, especially the west side of it and go over to Woodhull from there. Also thinking of putting a basecamp up around the plateau on Van Wyck sometime and bushwacking more extensively. Who knows what else might be around........

I have some great photos from the hike but my current OS seems to be photo/internet challenged. Maybe I could burn one of you a CD of them and you could get it to the others after copying it.

 

[CrisisBill]

Here is link to another hikers time spent on Van Wyck, he has pictures and maps of the crash sites.
http://chayden.net/Catskills/Catskills.html#VanWyck2004

I'm going up there this weekend to check things out.

 

[erd]

Oddly enough, Charlie & I did the trip he records here last year! I hadn't realized he had changed jobs, etc. though.

Ted.

 

[Mark Schaefer]

If those are copper mines I'll eat my hat.

Ted, your hat will be safe. There is no metals to be mined in the Catskills. Bluestone and gravel quarries are the only "mining" ever done in the Catskills. Most likely the term "copper mines" was just a local legend applied to the pits. I have not been able to find any references to these pits in the Catskill literature.

In the Shawangunks some zinc and lead deposited in fissures has been mined. There is reportedly some copper and silver accompanying the zinc and lead, but not enough to profitably mine.

 

[Jay H]

Mark, I'm disappointed.. I really would like to see Ted eat his hat. I hiked with him, assuming it's the same hat, it's a fairly large sized hat with a nice brim around it.



I found Charlie's site long time ago when Fred and I did the hike by ourselves last year.

Jay

 

[erd]

Yes, but the brim would be crunchy and bits would get stuck between my teeth...

Speaking of local legends, the pits on Ashokan High Point (these were definitely dug for livestock watering and are very different) are supposed to be tidal. That is, the water level rises and falls with the tides on the Hudson, 3000 feet and fifteen miles away. An interesting supposition, but unfortunately, this violates several laws of physics, not to mention commonsense...

Ted.

 

[rondak46]

USAF jet identity

I did a little research on the downed USAF jet and here is what i came up with.


----------------
55-4332/4424 Lockheed T-33A-5-LO
c/n 580-9776/9868
4402 crashed Nov 1, 1962 in Catskill mountains of New York on southern ridge of Van Wyck mountain. Both crew killed. The wreck is still there.
----------------

http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/lockheed_t33.htm


Mike

 

[Silverback]

Wondering if those pits aren't glacial tarns that didn't quite hold water, or, if there were soft spots, a product of erosion and not necessarily extraction.

 

[Jay H]

Mike, is there a central resource available for finding info on plane wrecks? I did a google of your info (great info, thanks!) and came up with where you found it:

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/1955.html

But that seems like somebody's personal website. There isn't a central repository or anything like that is there? Just wondering.

On a similar note, a Hermit, Mcorsar, and I bushwacked up Hatchery Hollow from Slide mtn Road to search for another jet crash on the west side of Panther. Did not find wreck but we are currently trying to find better info rather than a simply X marked on a topo map. I got another first hand response that there is a wreck there so at least we know we're not searching for something that isn't there..

Jay

 

[rondak46]

"No info for you", the wreck Nazi.

J/k

No, I dont have anything to share as I am new to this myself. I want to take my nephew up there and thought that an identity and story behind the wrecked jet would enrich his experience; so I plugged away until I came up with the link you posted above. Aside from that http://www.caterpillarclub.org/ is the only other useful site I know about.

I just sent an e-mail to the caterpillar clubs site owner requesting research info and i will pass it along when I get it.

What I find strange is the way Newspaper archives are so locked up, and their on-line archives so limited. Am I doing something wrong, because I get soooo little from on-line newspapers when i try to do research?

Mike

 

[Rivet]

Mike, is there a central resource available for finding info on plane wrecks?

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp

Click on Database Query

 

[rondak46]

Excellent wb page, thanks

The only limitations i see are:

No locations are given for the wreck site, other than township and elevation

This site does not include military wrecks as far as I can tell.

starting new thread titled Alpine Airplane wrecks.

Mike

 

[Jay H]

Rivet, neat link!

Wont help for the one on Panther, I believe it dates to 1957 whereas that Database query is 1962+

But might plug in some others while I'm there...

Jay

 

[Jay H]

Oh, While playing with Rivet's Link, I did find the one for the Piper crash on Van Wyck

NTSB Identification: NYC78FA005
14 CFR Part 91 General Aviation
Event occurred Saturday, November 05, 1977 in CLARYVILLE, NY
Aircraft: PIPER PA-23, registration: N14277



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FILE DATE LOCATION AIRCRAFT DATA INJURIES FLIGHT PILOT DATA
F S M/N PURPOSE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3-3832 77/11/5 CLARYVILLE,NY PIPER PA-23 CR- 1 0 0 NONCOMMERCIAL PRIVATE, AGE 42, 1000
TIME - 1545 N14277 PX- 4 0 0 PLEASURE/PERSONAL TRANSP TOTAL HOURS, UNK/NR IN
DAMAGE-DESTROYED OT- 0 0 0 TYPE, NOT INSTRUMENT
RATED.
DEPARTURE POINT INTENDED DESTINATION
POTTSTOWN,PA MONTICELLO,NY
TYPE OF ACCIDENT PHASE OF OPERATION
COLLISION WITH GROUND/WATER: CONTROLLED IN FLIGHT: NORMAL CRUISE
PROBABLE CAUSE(S)
PILOT IN COMMAND - ATTEMPTED OPERATION BEYOND EXPERIENCE/ABILITY LEVEL
PILOT IN COMMAND - CONTINUED VFR FLIGHT INTO ADVERSE WEATHER CONDITIONS
PILOT IN COMMAND - IMPROPER IN-FLIGHT DECISIONS OR PLANNING
FACTOR(S)
TERRAIN - HIGH OBSTRUCTIONS
WEATHER - LOW CEILING
WEATHER BRIEFING - BRIEFED BY WEATHER BUREAU PERSONNEL, IN PERSON
WEATHER FORECAST - FORECAST SUBSTANTIALLY CORRECT
SKY CONDITION CEILING AT ACCIDENT SITE
OBSCURATION 400
VISIBILITY AT ACCIDENT SITE PRECIPITATION AT ACCIDENT SITE
2 MILES OR LESS NONE
OBSTRUCTIONS TO VISION AT ACCIDENT SITE TEMPERATURE-F
FOG 55
WIND DIRECTION-DEGREES WIND VELOCITY-KNOTS
90 6
TYPE OF WEATHER CONDITIONS TYPE OF FLIGHT PLAN
IFR NONE
REMARKS- PIC WAS ADVISED BY WEA OBSERVER THAT VFR FLT WAS NOT RECOMMENDED.

Jay

 

[erd]

Oops. I somehow lost sight of this thread.

Couple of comments. The pits are not glacial. The soil is too friable, and they would have filled in within a couple of hundred years of exposure. They may have been dug for soil fill, as the earth's deep in that notch (glacial dam). I'm still investigating.

I do, thanks to a correspondent, have the crash report for the Van Wyck military wreck. The upper one is covered on the NTSB database, as I recall.

Ted.

 

[erd]

Jay -- I don't think that the report above is the Van Wyck crash. Sadly, that took five lives, this took one, if I read it aright. Most Piper cubs were two seat, some three, one model four. I have newspaper articles somewhere on the event, I believe. I'll look later today and post.

If not, I'm not sure offhand which this would be, though, but Claryville covers a lot of territory. Could it be Doubletop? I think that's a Piper Cub. The NTSB database is awkward to use because it doesn't provide co-ordinates.

Ted.

 

[erd]

I have just dug out my clipping (Times Herald Record, Nov 7. 1977). You do have the correct NTSB listing--the age of the pilot (42) in the report matches the newspaper account. The plane was a Piper Aztec.