N.E. Clean Power Connect in Maine - Should we care ?

[skiguy]

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...es-bills-that-target-cmp-transmission-project

 

[NHClimber]

Remember there are at least a couple political factions in "green" leadership.

There is a large faction that genuinely would like to see a real energy solution, but they shoot themselves in the foot by ruling out nuclear. The reality today is that today, you cannot supply abundant reliable energy without using nuclear. The other technologies are still "pie in the sky." We have to work hard to develop those other technologies (wind, solar, tides, fusion, whatever) and in 50-100 years they may be ready. But political leaders trying to force in "progress" when the technology is not ready will continue to create one disaster after another.

There is also a faction that is simply anti-development of any kind, and are unalterably opposed to anything that works. If you developed the "magic power source" tomorrow, they would be opposed to it. Examples:

"The only hope for the world is to make sure there is not another United States. We can’t let other countries have the same number of cars, the amount of industrialization, we have in the US. We have to stop these Third World countries right where they are." -
Michael Oppenheimer, Environmental Defense Fund

"No matter if the science of global warming is all phony… Climate change provides the greatest opportunity to bring about justice and equality in the world." - Christine Stewart, former Canadian Minister of the Environment

You have to pay close attention to sort out the messaging that drives things like these difficult power line projects. I would actually love to see the "magic power source" be developed, because it would strip away a lot of cover and make it easier to see real motivations like "public good" and "environmental benefit", and also real motivations like "personal wealth" and "political power."

Certainly agree that nuclear will have to be part of the solution (if not most of it). But politically it has been dead for decades, with resources being dedicated to inferior technology. Bill Gates and many other high profile tech types are heavily invested in a number of small companies that are developing next generation nuclear technologies. It's a shame that politics gets in the way of technological development.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

[THREAD DRIFT]

Certainly agree that nuclear will have to be part of the solution (if not most of it). But politically it has been dead for decades, with resources being dedicated to inferior technology. Bill Gates and many other high profile tech types are heavily invested in a number of small companies that are developing next generation nuclear technologies. It's a shame that politics gets in the way of technological development.

RE: Nuclear Power

At this point, it is economics and lack of skilled workers that is holding back nuclear power, not politics. The Vogtle cost overruns have been related to poor construction oversight. https://www.powermag.com/how-the-vogtle-nuclear-expansions-costs-escalated/

The only politics I see in the Nuclear equation is the debate over what constitutes Low-Level Waste and how to safely dispose of it. Like many issues these days, both sides of the low-level waste issue claim to have the science/facts on their side.

[/THREAD DRIFT]

 

[peakbagger]

CONTINUED THREAD DRIFT

This technology looks promising https://www.powermag.com/a-thorium-molten-salt-reactor-when-and-where-you-need-it/?pagenum=1, the US did al the research but abandoned it as the goal of civilian nuke plants was to make hazardous waste that was a feed to make bombs). This process yield far less waste since its more efficient. Also self regulating and easy to shut down.
Thorium is readily available and going with a factory approach to construction cut costs quite a bit. Repower three or four old nuke sites and new england goes carbon free.

 

[TCD]

"At this point, it is economics and lack of skilled workers that is holding back nuclear power, not politics."

Vogtle is more an example of the fate of many large semi-public construction projects. Google the "Big Dig" or the Cali high speed rail project for additional examples. Truth is, decades of political attack have made progress on nuclear very difficult. And that's intentional, not accidental.

This technology looks promising https://www.powermag.com/a-thorium-molten-salt-reactor-when-and-where-you-need-it/?pagenum=1, the US did al the research but abandoned it as the goal of civilian nuke plants was to make hazardous waste that was a feed to make bombs).

Thanks for bringing up Thorium, and accurately explaining the history. USA has the largest Thorium reserves in the world. It's part of the solution. If it ever gets developed again, watch the protest groups appear...

A dumbed-down summary of nuclear power: https://xkcd.com/2163/

More like a "dumb summary" when the first word that appears is "Chernobyl." This kind of material is why we will not get to Thorium, and instead have widespread power outages in a few years.

 

[B the Hiker]

Jazzbo is correct IMO regarding population issue as being the real limiting variable and I’ve said that here before. The earth simply cannot handle the population growth, and all the conservation efforts barely scratch the surface in terms of their long term collective impact. I think we all hope that some ground breaking technology will make truly renewable energy abundant, cheap and without significant environmental impact, but I don’t see the physics in that currently.

NHPR's "Outside/In" podcast has done a balanced and quite fine two-part podcast on the issue of overpopulation, for those interested. I learned more than I expected from these two episodes.
http://outsideinradio.org/shows/2018/10/11/so-over-population

 

[richard]

IMO. Overpopulation is the number one problem facing the world today. Just my opinion. Just about all the other problems follow.

 

[Salty]

IMO. Overpopulation is the number one problem facing the world today. Just my opinion. Just about all the other problems follow.

I did my part my not procreating. Well, I suppose I could have done more.

 

[TCD]

But political leaders trying to force in "progress" when the technology is not ready will continue to create one disaster after another.

Resurrecting this from a couple weeks ago. Here is an example:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/06/andrew-cuomo-natural-gas-pipeline-permits-blocked/

Cuomo is making a show of trying to force in technology that is not ready, in order to pander to ill informed supporters. Sadly, this is resulting in higher prices, energy shortages, and HIGHER CO2 emissions.

 

[CaptCaper]

IMO. Overpopulation is the number one problem facing the world today. Just my opinion. Just about all the other problems follow.

I agree and nothing can stop the trashing of our planet until man takes a huge hit to set him back to the 1200's or so. A huge Plaque or Nuclear war which will happen. And some will survive and adapt for sure. Just a matter of when. Nothing will stop it.

 

[peakbagger]

FYI The Maine Land Use Planning Commission (LUPC) voted to delay approval of the project. They act as a "planning board for the unorganized townships. There is separate petition drive effort to put the project to a statewide vote.

 

[Mac]

IMO. Overpopulation is the number one problem facing the world today. Just my opinion. Just about all the other problems follow.

https://www.canadiangeographic.ca/a...robably-going-decline-heres-what-means-canada

Just sayin'

 

[peakbagger]

Another parallel between Northern Pass in NH and the project in Maine.

https://www.sunjournal.com/2019/09/...on-corridor-provides-new-point-of-contention/

Northern Pass was substantially blocked in Northern NH until Wagner/Bayroot/Yale retirement fund stepped in and provided a route over their land that bypassed the SPNHF blocking actions. The actual total value of the NH right of way was never revealed and reportedly included putting in expensive provisions for allowing a wind farm larger than the Granite Reliable Wind farm to be built north or RT 26. CMP had made claims previously that they could not afford any more costs on the Maine project but seem to have found some "loose change" to pay for the reroute when the alternative was that the project might get scrapped.

 

[egilbe]

It seems that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Why make the jag towards Beattie pond to begin with? It's like it was intentionally done to create such a situation.

 

[peakbagger]

It seems that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Why make the jag towards Beattie pond to begin with? It's like it was intentionally done to create such a situation.

CMP had wanted to run over the proposed southern route that was the shortest distance but their claim was they had to do the longer alternative route to the north of the Pond as that the landowner to the south of the pond "wanted 50 times fair market value" than the easement was worth. The manager/owner of the strip is Wagner/Bayroot/Yale. So it wasnt that CMP wanted to do the route to the north they just made an economic decision that it was cheaper to reroute to the north than pay Wagner/Bayroot/Yale. Now that the regulators have told them the north route could prevent the project from getting approved they had to go back to Wagner/Bayroot/Yale and work out a deal on the south route. I expect Wagner/Bayroot/Yale was quite familiar with the potential issues with the north route and therefore they had a major upper hand in the negotiations.

 

[TEO]

Resurrecting this from a couple weeks ago. Here is an example:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/06/andrew-cuomo-natural-gas-pipeline-permits-blocked/

Cuomo is making a show of trying to force in technology that is not ready, in order to pander to ill informed supporters. Sadly, this is resulting in higher prices, energy shortages, and HIGHER CO2 emissions.

And that's an opinion piece from a conservative magazine.

 

[peakbagger]

CMP is getting ready for the referendum being approved https://www.pressherald.com/2019/11/30/pac-to-argue-for-bringing-canadian-hydropower-to-new-england/

 

[peakbagger]

Looks like Maine Land Use Planning Commission is going to approve

https://www.stltoday.com/news/natio...cle_70fc3592-4749-52b6-88ab-0e06aa4f8e28.html

Given the governors support I expect the project will get state approvals but the real action is the referendum.

 

[egilbe]

Just a feeling, but all the negativity being generated by CMP lying to its customers is going to get the project canceled. No one in the state trusts them.

 

[peakbagger]

The pro power line group funded by the utility trying to build the line, CMP and Hydro Quebec just rolled out the big advertising bucks this week against the opposition. Looks like it will get nasty

https://shameonnrcm.com/

This ad is banner ad on the Bangor Daily News. BDN is the voice of the conservative part of Maine that tends to vote very conservative (they were a big factor in the LePage election). The trade off is most of the population in Maine is in three far more liberal counties along the maine coast. If the voters decide to care about what is going on north of them they will probably vote to stop the project.

Natural Resource Council of Maine (NRCM) is one of the many groups opposing the project. The utility and hydro Quebec stand to make 100s of millions on the project so they will always have deeper pockets than the opposition.

Note that if the Clean Energy Matters is clicked on it just redirects to the ad. CMP is currently universally hated in Maine so they conveniently don't happen to mention that.