N.E. Clean Power Connect in Maine - Should we care ?
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On hold again
https://scnow.com/business/court-pu...cle_7baee110-3030-5294-b371-a016b5daea4c.html
No doubt the last minute presidential permit will be litigated.
https://scnow.com/business/court-pu...cle_7baee110-3030-5294-b371-a016b5daea4c.html
No doubt the last minute presidential permit will be litigated.
From the above link:
"The Army Corps gave its approval in November and the project previously received approval from the Maine Department of Environmental Protection, Maine Land Use Planning Commission and Maine Public Utilities Commission".
So some judge figures he knows more than those agencies who are actually tasked with evaluating the environmental impact of the project.
"The Army Corps gave its approval in November and the project previously received approval from the Maine Department of Environmental Protection, Maine Land Use Planning Commission and Maine Public Utilities Commission".
So some judge figures he knows more than those agencies who are actually tasked with evaluating the environmental impact of the project.
Like any highly politicized project, there are two sides to the coin. Close to a billion dollars for a project in Maine with 100s of millions in long term profits to the owners. There are multiple appeals filed on various permits that could take months or years to finalize. The project owner is working on the assumption that once they cut the swath and start the build that it gives them a major upper hand on those appeals. The various groups against the project are arguing that cutting the swath is going to do irreparable environmental harm.
The majority of the state permits were finalized through under the orders of the new Maine governor when she took office. Maine had and still has no functional regulatory process for looking at overall state impacts of a large transmission project like CPC. CPC gerrymandered the alignment sticking to unorganized townships so that the LURP which was packed with LePage cronies rubber stamped the process. The new governors home district is Farmington and which will benefit greatly from the project construction. The Maine ratepayers get little or no long term benefit to the project. Its a separate operating division of CMP (owned by Avangrid) on the non regulated side of the business. The vast majority of profits go offshore, and with the exception of the construction phase, the majority of the benefits go to Mass which incidentally up until recently did not recognize Canadian hydro as clean or renewable. Its really just a rebranding exercise that does not impact global carbon reduction. There are no new hydro plants being built. Existing hydro generated power already being sold to ratepayers in Quebec will be replaced with natural gas generated power from underutilized plants https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...dollar-gas-plant-scandal-too/article28198115/ and the same "hydro power" will be sold to Mass at a premium. Its just NIMBY on an international level. Mass gets to greenwash fossil power and check off the box on the renewable portfolio standard. A European multinational wins, Hydro Quebec wins and Mass politicians win. No where do Maine residents win in the long run who incidentally when given a chance voted the project down.
Luckily unlike Maine, NH had a functional statewide process for dealing with large projects, left over from a large oil refinery project and higher visibility and this project got moved to Maine. It far more out of sight and out of mind to the typical outdoor enthusiast than NH and thus the title of the thread "Should we care?"
The majority of the state permits were finalized through under the orders of the new Maine governor when she took office. Maine had and still has no functional regulatory process for looking at overall state impacts of a large transmission project like CPC. CPC gerrymandered the alignment sticking to unorganized townships so that the LURP which was packed with LePage cronies rubber stamped the process. The new governors home district is Farmington and which will benefit greatly from the project construction. The Maine ratepayers get little or no long term benefit to the project. Its a separate operating division of CMP (owned by Avangrid) on the non regulated side of the business. The vast majority of profits go offshore, and with the exception of the construction phase, the majority of the benefits go to Mass which incidentally up until recently did not recognize Canadian hydro as clean or renewable. Its really just a rebranding exercise that does not impact global carbon reduction. There are no new hydro plants being built. Existing hydro generated power already being sold to ratepayers in Quebec will be replaced with natural gas generated power from underutilized plants https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...dollar-gas-plant-scandal-too/article28198115/ and the same "hydro power" will be sold to Mass at a premium. Its just NIMBY on an international level. Mass gets to greenwash fossil power and check off the box on the renewable portfolio standard. A European multinational wins, Hydro Quebec wins and Mass politicians win. No where do Maine residents win in the long run who incidentally when given a chance voted the project down.
Luckily unlike Maine, NH had a functional statewide process for dealing with large projects, left over from a large oil refinery project and higher visibility and this project got moved to Maine. It far more out of sight and out of mind to the typical outdoor enthusiast than NH and thus the title of the thread "Should we care?"
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Sad to see that such significant regional history is being forgotten.
https://www.nytimes.com/1974/01/27/...lan-divides-new-hampshire-area-governors.html
https://classic.esquire.com/article...new-hampshire-democracy-1-aristotle-onassis-0
The project was proposed in NH but would have impacted Southern Maine as it would have been downwind of the plume. In general Southern Maine and Southern NH would look far different. I would be surprised if there would not oil rigs out in the Gulf of Maine if it was built. No doubt if there was an oil spill in the gulf of Maine it would not respect borders.
The NH Site Evaluation Committee (SEC) was formed in part to deal with "Megaprojects" that would have statewide impact. The SEC is what finally shut down Northern Pass project. Its not anti development but it forces overall state and regional impacts to be reviewed under a single unified government approach. Maine does not have anything similar and IMHO CMP used the disjointed approach Maine tries to use to their advantage. BTW there are bills in front of the Maine legislature to put in a more unified approach to large projects after the fact.
https://www.nytimes.com/1974/01/27/...lan-divides-new-hampshire-area-governors.html
https://classic.esquire.com/article...new-hampshire-democracy-1-aristotle-onassis-0
The project was proposed in NH but would have impacted Southern Maine as it would have been downwind of the plume. In general Southern Maine and Southern NH would look far different. I would be surprised if there would not oil rigs out in the Gulf of Maine if it was built. No doubt if there was an oil spill in the gulf of Maine it would not respect borders.
The NH Site Evaluation Committee (SEC) was formed in part to deal with "Megaprojects" that would have statewide impact. The SEC is what finally shut down Northern Pass project. Its not anti development but it forces overall state and regional impacts to be reviewed under a single unified government approach. Maine does not have anything similar and IMHO CMP used the disjointed approach Maine tries to use to their advantage. BTW there are bills in front of the Maine legislature to put in a more unified approach to large projects after the fact.
Well, I didn't live here then, I lived in CA at the time, so it wasn't "forgotten".
You stated that the project was moved to Maine:
"Luckily unlike Maine, NH had a functional statewide process for dealing with large projects, left over from a large oil refinery project and higher visibility and this project got moved to Maine. It far more out of sight and out of mind to the typical outdoor enthusiast than NH and thus the title of the thread "Should we care?" "
So, that is why I asked where the refinery is in Maine.
Perhaps you are thinking of this proposed refinery in ME, which was also defeated. About 10 years later.
https://www.nrcm.org/nrcm-success-stories/pittston-oil-refinery/
And, according to the history I read online, that project in NH was largely stopped due to the efforts of three women:
https://granitegeek.concordmonitor.com/2018/03/06/oil-refinery-almost-built-new-hampshire-seacoast/
And it looks like the "process" that NH used, at least initially, was state sanctioned NIMBY.
I'm not saying I'm in favor of any of these projects. As far as I am concerned, MA residents should build their own power plants, nuclear of course.
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It comes down to grammar which I dont pretend to be an expert The "this" referred to CPC not the oil refinery.
As for what and how the 1974 project was voted down I was in high school. I did on the other hand have to get to know the SEC commission process as I had to sit before on on a proposed project in Berlin. As part of the prep we have a former PUC commissioner assisting us and he was the that gave us the history on the SEC. I didnt represent that the SEC process stopped the 1974 refinery I represented that SEC was set up for Megaprojects. I guess I skipped that the NH SEC regs were put in place after the 1974 project.
I guess we can agree on one thing, Mass should be generating their own "carbon neutral" power, be it nuclear or other.
As for what and how the 1974 project was voted down I was in high school. I did on the other hand have to get to know the SEC commission process as I had to sit before on on a proposed project in Berlin. As part of the prep we have a former PUC commissioner assisting us and he was the that gave us the history on the SEC. I didnt represent that the SEC process stopped the 1974 refinery I represented that SEC was set up for Megaprojects. I guess I skipped that the NH SEC regs were put in place after the 1974 project.
I guess we can agree on one thing, Mass should be generating their own "carbon neutral" power, be it nuclear or other.
egilbe
Member
Massachuseets should either work on generating their own power, or work on significantly reducing what they already use. They can't be the same people behind "RESTORE" the north woods and then want to build a power corridor through the same woods. When CMP was locally owned and operated, it was a much better steward. Now that its foreign owned and operated, its universally hated.
Tom_Murphy
Member
So each State should generate power comparable to their consumption? Is that really practical?
I used to do boiler inspection of the Mohave Units in Laughlin Nevada. Those units were downwind of the California Electric Utilities that were the major stakeholders; so I can appreciate the issues involved and apparent hypocrisy. As current example, I believe the Colstrip Units still export their power to the West Coast on their DC line.
Should this idea of "make our own power" be extended to other resources such as fuel refining and food production? The mid-Atlantic States deal with issues associated with all the chicken processing.
land fills and waste recovery plants (trash burners)?
Agreed. Allowing a foreign company to operate something as vital to US security as electric power generating and distribution systems is the height of stupidity.
Not just a foreign power, there is also a security threat from a couple of individuals with readily available public knowledge and legal firearms. They can knock out 2 GWs (2000 MW) of power to southern New England in a couple of minutes. Overhead powerlines are inherently not something that can be secured. Do it on a cold winter day when there is inadequate natural gas supply to run both power plants and home heating and Mass is looking at rolling blackouts. The last time an idiot took out the line running down the NH VT border target practicing, it took a couple of days to get it up an running.
So true. Yet, when a 60 mile section of Northern Pass was proposed to be buried, there was still an uproar. In some cases it increased opposition because underground line construction usually entails more disruption. The fact is that nobody wants to have their surrounding environment impacted by these projects. So, it seems only fair that those communities that require additional power bear most (all?) of the pain.
Lost Dad
Member
Deregulation of the electric power industry has pushed our grid into some vulnerable operating conditions. Industry decisions are now made based on profit alone. As much as I do not believe in regulation; the electric utility industry, where all power is delivered through a single grid, should have remained regulated. There was a lot more redundancy when the industry was regulated. Our NP & ME Connect conversation might be very different (or non-existant) if the industry were still regulated. In New England, burning wood waste is considered to be renewable energy. Despite the big push for renewable energy, many of the wood waste plants in ME are closed because the power generated by these plants is not economical to generate.
There is an economic advantage to the historic placement of many of the largest power plants away from thier actual customer base. Some of the largest coal fired power plants in the US were in or near native american reservations. The jobs offered by the power plants and the associated mining and other industries made a huge economic impact on these communities. Now that coal has gone out of favor (rightfully so) these populations in MT, AZ & NM will suffer the economic loss
There is an economic advantage to the historic placement of many of the largest power plants away from thier actual customer base. Some of the largest coal fired power plants in the US were in or near native american reservations. The jobs offered by the power plants and the associated mining and other industries made a huge economic impact on these communities. Now that coal has gone out of favor (rightfully so) these populations in MT, AZ & NM will suffer the economic loss
JoshandBaron
Well-known member
So why didn't ME and NH want the refineries? They rely on fuel oil more than any other states in the country. Maybe we can move all the LNG infrastructure north a few miles, too? Making individual communities wholly responsible for their own energy needs seems a bit impractical in a place as small as New England.
This adds some confusion. starting to look like a certain pipeline out west. If passed my guess is the developers would sue the State of Maine for costs incurred to date unless there is proceed at risk clause somewhere in mix.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...-1b-power-line-have-signatures-for-referendum
Lots of good replies to drift the thread but figured I would try to keep it specific to the actual power line
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...-1b-power-line-have-signatures-for-referendum
Lots of good replies to drift the thread but figured I would try to keep it specific to the actual power line
My familiarity with this line of questioning goes way back to the mid 1970's, and the bottom line hasn't changed. It is quite simple, really--Maine has few harbors suitable for either oil or LNG, and the ones that are deep enough either have no room ( Portland/SoPortland, Portsmouth) or are up in the Bay of Fundy ( Eastport) where the extreme tidal rise and fall makes off-loading difficult, and even more difficult to engineer safely.
it isn't a political or economic issue of desire or want for the states, it is a geographic and topological consequence of how the continents separated.
Since WW2 up until about 10 years ago South Portland was major oil terminal for smaller tankers. All the crude was pumped to refineries in Montreal. The concept was that Montreal was not vulnerable to attacks from the coast. The Irving refinery in St John New Brunswick pretty well supplies much of New England with refined products, they can offload super tankers and Irving effectively owns the province so they dont have to worry about public opposition.
An update
https://www.pressherald.com/2021/02...line-caught-up-in-high-stakes-power-struggle/
CMP also made the news negatively this week when they threw major roadblock to the booming solar industry in Maine that started after the new Governor and legislature got into power
https://www.mainepublic.org/post/maine-solar-projects-upended-after-cmp-calls-more-system-upgrades.
The Clean Power project was "out of sight out of mind" for a long time in southern Maine which tends to call the political shots in Maine. This is arguably why the transmission project got as far as it did. Solar on the hand is a hot button issue that plays very well in southern Maine and the groups promoting it are very well connected with southern Maine and Maine politics. This additional bad PR fuels the anti CMP campaign and no doubt will help the second referendum to stop the transmission line. It also could put some more interest for the state to take over the power system.
https://www.pressherald.com/2021/02...line-caught-up-in-high-stakes-power-struggle/
CMP also made the news negatively this week when they threw major roadblock to the booming solar industry in Maine that started after the new Governor and legislature got into power
https://www.mainepublic.org/post/maine-solar-projects-upended-after-cmp-calls-more-system-upgrades.
The Clean Power project was "out of sight out of mind" for a long time in southern Maine which tends to call the political shots in Maine. This is arguably why the transmission project got as far as it did. Solar on the hand is a hot button issue that plays very well in southern Maine and the groups promoting it are very well connected with southern Maine and Maine politics. This additional bad PR fuels the anti CMP campaign and no doubt will help the second referendum to stop the transmission line. It also could put some more interest for the state to take over the power system.
ChrisB
Well-known member
And CMP has taken major lumps over its strange / erratic billing practices which I believe resulted in a State investigation.
Not your friendly local monopoly utility!
Not your friendly local monopoly utility!
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