N.E. Clean Power Connect in Maine - Should we care ?

[peakbagger]

The goal of HQ is not to bring in new hydro power to Mass. The goal is get them out of a bind with an under utilized 620MW natural gas fired power plant in Three RIvers Quebec that was built on a take or pay basis. HQ has been paying the owner for many years not to run it and its was an ongoing embarrassment. Existing hydro already being generated and sold in Quebec will be diverted to the CPC line so that Mass can claim New Hydro while the Quebec ratepayers will get to use "dirty fossil". HQ was asked multiple times to guarantee that this was new natural hydro and refused. Like NP and CPC it has never been a carbon reduction project, it has always been a very profitable venture for HQ and the utility that is hosting it. Do note, they set this project up intentionally to avoid ISO New England the regional grid operator. Given its effectively a gas project, it would have been far easier to upgrade the PNGTS gas line and just run a local natural gas plant off the upgraded PNGTS.

CPC and similar projects is why carbon accounting gets such a bad rep. It only works when the boundaries are the Earth's atmosphere. Carbon goes up in the air that knows no boundaries so drawing country boundaries into the calculation does not work. Europe ran into the same issue with carbon accounting. Until the rules make sense carbon accounting is random number generator.

 

[skiguy]

As mentioned here before. New England and the rest of the country for that matter would benefit for the long term to embrace an interdependent model of energy use among the States rather than every State for itself. Unfortunately in New England much of us are overly independent for our own good most of the time.

 

[rocket21]

As mentioned here before. New England and the rest of the country for that matter would benefit for the long term to embrace an interdependent model of energy use among the States rather than every State for itself. Unfortunately in New England much of us are overly independent for our own good most of the time.

The six New England states (with minor exceptions, such as eastern Maine) are powered by a single grid (operated by ISO-New England), which in turn is interconnected to the New York grid.

 

[Debarrunner]

The goal is to bring in hydro power so they can shut power plants down.

Sure, put it in someone else’s back yard. It’s the same old story. A hydro dam in Quebec is free of issues when observed from afar.

 

[skiguy]

The six New England states (with minor exceptions, such as eastern Maine) are powered by a single grid (operated by ISO-New England), which in turn is interconnected to the New York grid.

To clarify I am speaking more in means of production not consumption.

 

[peakbagger]

Hydro Quebec's hydro system was rated as "brown hydro" not deserving of green status by Mass and VT possibly other states long ago. VT wanted VT Yankee nuclear power plant gone and a couple of major utilities in the state were bought by Canadian firms and on the last day of legislative session before Christmas break one year HQ power was declared "green". Mass had a similar rating for Hydro Quebec power as "brown" until recently driven by the need to meet a agressive Renewable Power Portfolio goal and the loss of the Plymouth Nuclear Plant along with the Brayton Point generation Brayton Point Power Station - Wikipedia

Here is long discussion on how "green" HQ power that is being sent via CPC is Is New England’s Biggest Renewable Energy Project Really a Win for the Climate? • The Revelator

 

[NH2112]

The goal is to bring in hydro power so they can shut power plants down.

No, the goal is to get more electricity. The method that was chosen, after both NH & VT said “thanks, but no thanks”, was to build a power line corridor through part of Maine that a clear majority of Maine residents are opposed to. There’s a small solar farm in Adams MA, why don’t they just build more of those and a bunch of windmills across the state?

 

[Lone Stranger]

No, the goal is to get more electricity. The method that was chosen, after both NH & VT said “thanks, but no thanks”, was to build a power line corridor through part of Maine that a clear majority of Maine residents are opposed to. There’s a small solar farm in Adams MA, why don’t they just build more of those and a bunch of windmills across the state?

That power isn't for us. It is for MA. We were just in the way and as we've seen, the opinion of the people doesn't matter when this much money is involved.

Now we get to enjoy six months of expensive commercials to scare people into not voting to take over the state power system this Fall while they raise our rates to pay for them.

 

[NH2112]

That power isn't for us. It is for MA. We were just in the way and as we've seen, the opinion of the people doesn't matter when this much money is involved.

Now we get to enjoy six months of expensive commercials to scare people into not voting to take over the state power system this Fall while they raise our rates to pay for them.

That was my point, we don’t get anything out of it. It might cost us if CMP has to repair and maintain the lines and passes those costs on to us.

 

[peakbagger]

No, the goal is to get more electricity. The method that was chosen, after both NH & VT said “thanks, but no thanks”, was to build a power line corridor through part of Maine that a clear majority of Maine residents are opposed to. There’s a small solar farm in Adams MA, why don’t they just build more of those and a bunch of windmills across the state?

FYI, VT did not say no thanks, they approved and permitted a legitimate transmission line that ran along mostly existing right of ways and the bottom of Lake Champlain. The reason HQ would not bite on it was that they would not have exclusive use of it and it would under the control of ISO New England. The contract also was set up so Vermont ratepayers would get benefits on the front end and on a continuing basis. HQ basically went out and dangled a contract in front of any entity that was willing to do it cheap. PSNH dba Eversource NH leveraged a lot of existing right of ways purchased by the rate payer and years of being generous to politicians in a manner where Eversource corporate would get the profits while the ratepayer got little for assets they bought. When the SEC in NH put a stop this, Iberdrola parent of CMP, learned a few lessons and paid off a few environmental groups to pull the same scam. If not for an early partnership of SPNHF, AMC and other groups and individuals, it would have gone right across the whites aboveground. Maine's environmental groups were either asleep at the wheel or bought off so organized opposition did not form early enough and they were playing catchup.

Dont be surprised if at some point CMP proposes keeping the transmission system and selling the local distribution and customer service business at some very high price back to the ratepayers who already have paid for it through the years.

 

[TomK]

It might cost us if CMP has to repair and maintain the lines and passes those costs on to us.

Only if CMP is very stupid (I will not discount that possibility).

It is more reasonable to believe that CMP will charge enough for transmitting the power to pay for the repair and maintenance, recoup the costs of building the lines, and make a profit, which would be the whole point building the line.

TomK

 

[TomK]

ratepayers who already have paid for it through the years.

How is that any different from every business in the history of the world?

Customers *always* pay *all* of the costs. It is why we can have nice things.


TomK

 

[NH2112]

Only if CMP is very stupid (I will not discount that possibility).

It is more reasonable to believe that CMP will charge enough for transmitting the power to pay for the repair and maintenance, recoup the costs of building the lines, and make a profit, which would be the whole point building the line.

TomK

CMP has us over a barrel, it knows it can basically do whatever it wants and that neither the state nor any of its agencies will say or do anything. No negotiating for payments with the end user, just pass the expenses on to us. What are we going to do, get our power from someone else?

 

[andrewb]

Yes, we can get power from someone else ... the sun. Solar power is looking like a decent option cost wise. More money over the long run (at current rates), but not by very much BUT you get backup juice when the lines are down, which justifies the fact that it will be more money to me. And how many more HUGE increases will we see in rates over the next 20 years? I am willing to bet that at some point in the future, people who don't have solar will wish they had done it earlier.

 

[rocket21]

Yes, we can get power from someone else ... the sun. Solar power is looking like a decent option cost wise.

Solar doesn't help much during the expensive cold winter nights we get in New England...

 

[B the Hiker]

No, the goal is to get more electricity. The method that was chosen, after both NH & VT said “thanks, but no thanks”, was to build a power line corridor through part of Maine that a clear majority of Maine residents are opposed to. There’s a small solar farm in Adams MA, why don’t they just build more of those and a bunch of windmills across the state?

No, the goal is to bring renewable hydro energy to Massachusetts and the central New England ISO grid so we can lower our carbon footprint.

Hydro Quebec's dams produce an astonishing 165 TWh annually. (Hydro-Québec Production)

You ask why "they" (whoever that is) just build more small solar farms and a bunch of windmills. One highly productive windmill can produce as much as 6 million kwh annually. (how much energy does a windmill produce in a year - Google Search)

1 TWh = 1 billion kWh. So the dams produce 165,000,000,000 kWh annually. 165,000,000,000 / 6,000,000 = 27,500 windmills.

 

[Debarrunner]

No, the goal is to bring renewable hydro energy to Massachusetts and the central New England ISO grid so we can lower our carbon footprint.

Hydro Quebec's dams produce an astonishing 165 TWh annually. (Hydro-Québec Production)

You ask why "they" (whoever that is) just build more small solar farms and a bunch of windmills. One highly productive windmill can produce as much as 6 million kwh annually. (how much energy does a windmill produce in a year - Google Search)

1 TWh = 1 billion kWh. So the dams produce 165,000,000,000 kWh annually. 165,000,000,000 / 6,000,000 = 27,500 windmills.

Power generation in Mass was decided to be abandoned years ago when the design life of the power plants was looming ever closer and the increasing emission regs were becoming more strict (a good thing IMO). Mass would then have to get their power from other locations, like Hydro Quebec. How they get it is the issue of this thread.
It rubs people raw when someone (Mass in this case) throws their hands up and says that they need power when they put themselves in this position. Then their neighbors (NH and ME) should allow transmission lines through their states, regardless of the citizens opinions, and capitulate to the needs of others.
Perhaps a little forethought on how the power would get there would have been a good idea. Unfortunately we are past that point but that does not mean that we have to allow our wild places to be impacted against our wishes.

 

[peakbagger]

No, the goal is to bring renewable hydro energy to Massachusetts and the central New England ISO grid so we can lower our carbon footprint.

Hydro Quebec's dams produce an astonishing 165 TWh annually. (Hydro-Québec Production)

You ask why "they" (whoever that is) just build more small solar farms and a bunch of windmills. One highly productive windmill can produce as much as 6 million kwh annually. (how much energy does a windmill produce in a year - Google Search)

1 TWh = 1 billion kWh. So the dams produce 165,000,000,000 kWh annually. 165,000,000,000 / 6,000,000 = 27,500 windmills.

If you repeat an unproven statement enough times on a subject that you havent researched enough, it does not become true. Yes HQ dams have lots of capacity that was being used previously by other users. Therefore, any carbon benefit already exists, there is no new carbon benefit with existing hydro. If HQ was planning to add new capacity related to increased sales to Mass than it could be argued that yes there would be a carbon benefit. HQ was asked and refused to certify that the power coming down the line would be "new" hydro.

 

[B the Hiker]

"The Massachusetts contract with Hydro-Quebec is crucial to the state’s efforts to tackle climate change. Offshore wind is the homegrown industry grabbing all of the attention, but hydroelectricity from Quebec is the steady, reliable base on which Massachusetts can build a green electricity supply.

The contract with Hydro-Quebec promises a steady stream of electricity that should reduce the need for power generated by fossil fuels. The power comes from a series of 28 dammed reservoirs, and is not subject to daily fluctuations in wind or sunshine."

https://commonwealthmagazine.org/en...uebec-still-ready-to-honor-its-mass-contract/

 

[peakbagger]

Two sides to every story
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/big-power-shortfall-looms-quebec-123006114.html