Nellie's first hike

[Stash]

A dog thread but I'm looking for opinions. Not arguments.

My dog Nellie has been on a few local walks in the woods with me and she's amazing on a leash in the woods. She never gets hung up on a tree. Or if she does she knows enough to unwrap. I'd love to get her out for something longer but have a couple concerns.

She's a rescue, about 5 years old. Lab/whippet. 40lb. We've had her 3 years and, though she's come a long way, she's very "alpha" and was never properly socialized. She's okay with most people if they approach with confidence but really doesn't like any other dogs. Gets quite "growly" She's better about both if she's nowhere near home (territory) but I find it best if it's just her and me.

I'm hoping to get her out for something with very low traffic in the eastern Whites. Mid week. Probably in the next few weeks. She'd be on leash and, as I do around home when another dog approaches, I'd take her well off trail with the approach of anyone but she's still going to bark if they're within sight.

The question - mostly to fellow dog owners. If it's obvious that I'm working to maintain separation and she's leashed but she's barking aggressively, what is your reaction? What is your opinion on her being there? I'll be making every effort to avoid others but that is not always 100% possible.

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

Lauky and I have encountered the type of situation you describe a few times. When an owner has his dog on a leash and is being careful, perhaps with a gentle comment such as "My dog's not too good with other dogs." I hold Lauky back and it doesn't bother me.

Our biggest problem is with dogs that come bounding up unleashed. While most are friendly we have been attacked which has made me more wary when the situation arises. I've had people tell me their dogs are friendly only to have their dog attack. However, that's not your case since you have your dog on a leash.

I should say though that since I have a dog that wants to take off for Manchester or Concord every time he's out I have to keep him on a leash and that being the case I have the advantage of having full control over him.

I can't answer for folks whose dogs are running free. Some of the better known dogs out there are under magnificent voice control and would have no problem. Others are not so well behaved.

Personally I think though that if you keep your dog on a leash you won't have many problems. There will be, however, some trail encounters where because of the terrain or tree growth you will find it difficult to get very far off the trail.

On the other hand, at this time of year, mid-week, there are hikes you can do where you will encounter very few people and even fewer dogs.
__________________

 

[audrey]

Ideally, some training would do both of you a lot of good.

It won't be comfortable meeting people with aggressive barking going on. Dog owners can be just as intolerant of such behavior as dog-haters and dog-phobics because it reflects on all of us, and some people won't care that she's leashed, they'll still be angry or terrified. Other dogs may come towards her regardless of her being leashed. My Lab is the wimpiest most friendly dog I've ever had, and he'll try to make friends with her even if she's barking at him.

It gets harder and harder to find empty trails. We hiked Mt. Paugus for many years without meeting a soul. It's no longer true, especially since the Lawrence Trail is just a pale shadow of its former self.

Good luck, I'm afraid I can't think of a better solution than anti-aggression training, for her and for your own comfort.

 

[TrishandAlex]

I could have written Ed's post myself. Ditto to every single thing he said.

 

[Dave Bear]

You may find that as you gradually hike more populated trails your dog will start to socialize better. With my own dog I started with trails that were not very busy and then did some transition. I personally would not try to leave the trail because I feel once much of the training passes your dog may keep that as a habit. At times when mine would get anxious or overly friendly I would make him sit quietly beside me while they passed by. One big factor is that your dog will judge the situation and the people you encounter by your reaction to them. Long ago we had a Siberian Huskie that had been abused and the biggest cure for Tasha was gradual to extensive socializing so that she trusted most people. She still had reservations about some folks but I found her to be a reliable judge of character. The majority of people and dogs on the trails are going to help her fit right in. The other thing is to find a place to do social walks where it is less distance and time involved so you can control the duration if she has anxiety issues better than you can on a long hike. Another key thing I have found is that most dogs that bark aggressively are not mean but actually scared and unsure so talking to her and calming her rather than tone may be beneficial. Best of luck to you both and welcome to the trails Nellie!

 

[Peakbagr]

My Lab is a gentle Beta dog. She'd be frightened of Nellie, but I'd put her on a 'by me' command, click on her leash, and then lead her off trail far enough to let you and Nellie pass.
I agree with Audrey's comment. As good a dog as Nellie is, reflects on all dogs by acting aggressively. You've probably already thought of this - very early starts on lightly used trails. Do you bushwhack?
There are large areas in the ADKs where dogs must be leashed. I generally avoid those trails as I don't want to have to leash Bookah since she's completely uninterested in other dogs or hikers.

 

[JacobH]

Once, I believe on the Piper Trail, I was solo hiking and came around a corner and caught a LARGE black lab by surprise. He turned and snarled at me, teeth bared, the works. I was not sure if I was about to be attacked or if he was "all bark and no bite". He started at me and I put up my poles with all the intention of the world to defend myself at all costs. Luckily, he got about 5 feet away and stopped as his owner popped around the corner and called him off. He slowly backed away and I let them pass. She nonchalantly said "Oops, sometimes he does that to solo hikers, sorry". I was close to saying "Oops, I almost stabbed your dog in the eye with my trekking poles, sorry" but held back. I'm pretty sure the death glare I gave her got the point across. If you know your dog is prone to go into "attack mode" on people, why in the name of DoG would you not leash it???

Anyway, my point is, don't be "that person" and you and your dog are OK with me

 

[una_dogger]

Many good comments here. I'd like to add that it sounds as though Nellie is very stressed -- if she were mine (and I've worked with a few very reactive rescues) I would take her to wide open places where you can always bring her to whatever distance away that she is comfortable and not let her continue to practice those "hot zone" behaviors for coping. Many other dogs are likely to react to her as well -- even normally stable dogs-- in not so friendly ways.

A couple of good tools for you to assist her are a Gentle Leader or Halti that will allow you to redirect her attention to you. Giving her the option to look away from other dogs and to you to settle will go a long way in helping her. It sounds as though you are working with a method such as this already. Just be careful to always keep the safety attachment on the leader connected to her collar, or she could break free.

I can't thank you enough for keeping her on leash! There is nothing that bothers me as a dog owner more than the owner who knows their dog will lay into others aggressively but chooses to keep them unleashed at times to "experiment" on other dogs to "see if they will fight with this one" -- too many people do this knowingly and it is absolutely unfair to those of us out there with dogs do well with others. Little dogs can be seriously injured, younger dogs and puppies traumatized.

Another tool that works WONDERS for dogs with leash insecurities and reactive aggression is a soft muzzle. Just taking the ability to bite away from her may settle her quite a bit. Soft muzzles come in lots of fun colors and are not as intimidating to the public as the old style cage muzzles. And treats can be given through them as well.

To your initial question, if I were to encounter you with my older dog, we would give you space and plenty of it. We encounter many insecure leashed dogs both on the trail, about town and at local parks (and its my personal belief that leashing increases the tendancy to bark in many dogs, but mere barking is MUCH different than aggression and its clear you know what you are dealing with in Nellie) -- it's understandable what you are going through as you work to give Nellie the best life possible. If I were to encounter you with my puppy I would pick her up or use it as an opportunity to pre-train her to give alot of space to a dog like Nellie. You certainly have every right to be out there hiking with her responsibly, as you already are. Dogs bark, some more than others, and on leash she is not a threat to anyone. I would suggest though, that you very honestly ask yourself if putting her in positions of what sounds like intense stress to her is really what she needs? She came to you later in her life , with these issues and it was someone else who helped make her a prisoner of her life -- while you may in time get her to the point where hiking is a considerably less stressful -- it may not be realistic for her just yet? You sound like you really care about her and your question here took courage.

I applaud you for your commitment to her and thank you once again for keeping her leashed.

 

[griffin]

You certainly have every right to be out there hiking with her responsibly, as you already are. Dogs bark, some more than others, and on leash she is not a threat to anyone.

ditto.

As someone who also has a reactive dog (although we've made a ton of progress with him), if I saw someone stopping with their dog and trying to maintain space, I'd probably ask you what you wanted us to do - walk past while you held Nellie, step off and hold Augs while you went past, etc.

What I try to do with Augie is step off the trail well before people or dogs are close enough to get him worried. He gets rewarded for staying calm and focusing on me, mostly we just stay out of the way until people pass. It keeps him at a safe distance and it also teaches him an alternative behavior to getting upset (sitting calmly near strangers = beef jerky and cheese!) For Augie, being forced to be in close proximity with another dog or someone who makes him nervous, plus me holding tight to the leash (which you'd have to do to keep him close enough to be safe) is what's going to stress him out and make him more likely to react.

But that's Augie. Not all dogs are stressed by the same things, or react in the same way.

 

[Stash]

What a bunch of nice responses. Thank you!

In answer/confirmation to a few of the items...

Nellie will always be on a leash when she's away from the house. There are dogs that work well under voice control. She's not one of them.

On the stress item.. I've found that what works best with her when people or bicycles approach is to sit her at the edge of the road or path, kneel beside her and just scratch her neck while talking quietly. It works 90% of the time. For other dogs we move as far away as possible or, if conditions allow, we simply take another route. Turning around and walking the other way for a while is not a bad thing. And I'm always talking to her. Praising for the slightest good deed.

My daughter works at the local pet store (the owner lives next door). We have every gadget known to man. The Gentle Leader worked well early on as did a harness that works down around her legs. We're to a point, though, that a simple collar works most of the time and if we're in a stressful situation I'm right next to her anyway, between her and the object.

We use a soft muzzle for vet visits (in the waiting room - she's fine with the vet) and similar situations. I'll also put it on her if someone will be at the house for an extended period of time (furnace guy, etc). We usually don't have a problem once there's been an introduction with treats and ear scratches involved but there have been times when she'll nip at their heels in a herding way to let them know it's her house.

Finally, Una Dogger - I think she's ready. If you ever saw her after a long walk in the woods around here you'd know what I mean.

Your responses have given me much more confidence. Thank you. I hope we'll see a few of you out there - without your dogs (no offense!).

 

[Stash]

...and for those who may run into us. Nellie is the subject of this post..

 

[una_dogger]

Your responses have given me much more confidence. Thank you. I hope we'll see a few of you out there - without your dogs (no offense!).

Awww -- that's great! Hope to see you on the trails someday, too.

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

Lauky thinks every dog is his friend. Even one that had ambushed him. After a few minutes for his Terrier temper to calm down he wanted to go back and play with him.

So...we both hope to see you out there sometime. Happy hiking.