New Eastern High Peaks Bear Canister Rule

[Quack]

ADackR,

What knowledge are you talking about? Finding food? Building shelter? Staying warm? I don't even want to think about what the high peaks region would look like if everyone were eating the plants and animals, or cutting down trees to build lean-to's and fires. Bear canisters aren't about dumbing down camping, they're about protecting the Bears. I see bear canisters as the intelligent solution to a complicated problem.

 

[Tramper Al]

... it's gone to the point where rules must be laid out for the common denominator....

Yeah, isn't it just amazing that those common people are even allowed in 'our' woods? Obviously, such rules and regulations do not apply to those of us who are so intellectually and morally superior.

 

[percious]

I'm on the fence about buying one right away and I'm wondering if this is about the best deal I can hope to find.

Go for it dude. If anything it will give you a reason to head up to the high peaks!

-percious

 

[erd]

Hi all,

I just got off the phone with Neil Woodworth, ADK's Executive Director and Counsel. Here's the situation. Yesterday DEC issued their latest Environmental Notice Bulletin, which listed the bear canister rule. He says they completely failed to note the public comment period (which, he says--and as a lawyer he should know--violates NYS law), and he made the not-unreasonable assumption that this had been put in place on an emergency basis.

However, as Crazymama noted yesterday, there IS indeed a public comment period, and a retraction and clarification notice, which I will post here when received, will go out later today from ADK.

I would urge everyone who has contributed to this thread to place public comment. I don't think this will necessarily alter the outcome, but I personally would

a: like to see considerably more emphasis on placed educating the hiking public on food storage

b: would like to see the rule clarify placement of the bear canister--as a friend pointed out, with the present wording you could stick it in your tent with you and still be legal (not something I would advocate <g>--usually a 100 foot minimum distance is advised). Also, a notice about cooking away from your tent!

c: that (perhaps) DEC should provide adequate provision for securing food at the most visited areas.

Ted.

 

[ADackR]

ADackR,

What knowledge are you talking about? Finding food? Building shelter? Staying warm? I don't even want to think about what the high peaks region would look like if everyone were eating the plants and animals, or cutting down trees to build lean-to's and fires. Bear canisters aren't about dumbing down camping, they're about protecting the Bears. I see bear canisters as the intelligent solution to a complicated problem.

i'm talking about properly educating yourself about proper food stoage, where to camp and not to camp, where to hike on a trail and not expanding the trail, where to take just enough wood for a fire and where to leave wood when it seems too much has been taken.

these common practices can go a long way if people used them, but since many choose not to follow them it has been decided that laws need to be made for people to follow...

 

[ADackR]

Yeah, isn't it just amazing that those common people are even allowed in 'our' woods? Obviously, such rules and regulations do not apply to those of us who are so intellectually and morally superior.

not bad, that's a great way to promote discussion. but in your little *** you did hint upon something.

"intellectually" if people went into a camping and or hiking situation, wouldn't you think its a persons duty to educate themseleves about the area they plan to explore??

 

[erd]

Here is the updated communication from ADK (when you guys are through slugging it out) <g>.

Dear Colleagues:
>
> The NYS Department of Environmental Conservation
> (DEC) has released its
> final proposed bear canister regulation for
> overnight campers in the
> Eastern High Peaks. The regulation will be
> effective immediately once
> the public comment period has ended.
>
> DEC released a press release yesterday announcing
> that it will be
> accepting public comment on the bear canister
> regulation from May 18th
> until July 5th 2005.
>
> Please address your comments to: Kenneth Kogut, New
> York State
> Department of Environmental Conservation, Region 5
> Headquarters, Route
> 86, Box 296, Ray Brook, NY 12977. (518) 897-1200 or
> e-mail comments to:
> [email protected] with the following
> subject line: Comments on
> Bear resistant Food Canister Proposed Regulation.
>
> The proposed regulation amends Title 6 NYCRR Section
> 190.13.
>
> According to the proposed regulation, a bear
> resistant canister is
> defined as: "a commercially made container
> constructed of solid,
> non-pliable material manufactured for the specific
> purpose of resisting
> entry by bears."
>
> The proposed regulation states that "during the
> period April 1 through
> November 30, no overnight camper in the Eastern High
> Peaks Zone shall
> fail to use bear-resistant canisters for the storage
> of all food, food
> containers, garbage, and toiletries."
>
> ADK strongly recommends that all overnight campers
> in the Eastern High
> Peaks Wilderness Area begin using bear resistant
> canisters immediately
> rather than continuing to rely on cables or other
> storage devices which
> are currently required under existing law.
>
> Please let us know if you have any questions.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Neil F. Woodworth, Executive Director and Counsel
>
> Marisa Iannacito,Conservation Director

 

[rondak46]

snapshot of Tramper Al...

...upon hearing of the new Regulations...

 

[Tramper Al]

snapshot of Tramper Al ... upon hearing of the new Regulations...

Well, I'm sure I'm flattered.

I don't really care one way or another about the regulations, but from what I hear of the ADKs, human food needs to be kept inaccessible, or bears will die.

The attitude that the mountains are here for a few morally elite and that the uneducated masses are less deserving is one I find at once laughable and very sad.

I do love New York.

 

[ADackR]

i guess really that's your perceived notion to my statements. in no way am i saying only "the elite" shall enjoy the outdoors only you have stated that....

but i guess i can take that same notion and imply, that your saying anyone should go into a situation a NOT educate themselves of the repercussions their actions could take..

that's pretty neat

 

[DougPaul]

it seems that the popular take on camping and hiking as a result, is starting to dumb down the adventure. what happened to the time when going into the forest you had to have the knowledge to survive.... you had to know how to deal with every situation put in front of you... i mean, it seems now adays anyone can go into the forrests with the mindset of "if something goes wrong, somone will get me out of this mess"... i'm not saying that even if your the stongest or smartest person out there something isn't going to happen, because it does. i'm just saying that basis of knowledge is gone...

Far too late... How many of us can go off into the wilderness for an extended time with just a knife? (Or better yet, without even the knife...)

And if we did, the woods would be signifcantly changed/damaged by our impact.

In this day and age, most of us are urban creatures visiting the woods for recreation. The pile of equiment we bring along not only substitutes for knowledge, it can help us reduce our impact--including not tempting the bears.

Doug

 

[J&A]

Does this mean I, as a college student who makes the bear minimum amount of money required to live, will have to either fork out nearly $100 for a BearVault in addition to the already proposed $100 "America the Beautiful" pass just so I can sleep out in the woods? Or are they still permitting people to hang up their food as they do out west? Hiking is one of the few activities I've found that doesn't require consecutively paying large sums of money to participate in, but that doesn't really seem to be the case. I don't necessarily like hanging my food, and it usually takes me a while, but it's worth not having to pay $80 for an overpriced peice of plastic (in my estimation). Why can't DEC subsidize these BearVaults or something...it really doesn't seem like they should be that expensive. I'm all about protecting the bears, but when I go hiking here in West Virginia which I think has some of the most highly concentrated bear populations, I'm not forced to buy and carry this plastic monster. I've never had a bear infiltrate my hung up bags. I'm curious whether there was any commercial lobbying to get this new rule on the books. Probably not, since I don't imagine bear-canister building is a substantial industry, but it still makes me wonder. Also, would these regulations be in place for the Catskills as well?

 

[Quack]

J&A,

I don't think it's a law (yet) to carry the canisters every where, you'd have to check with your local parks. That being said, using the canisters before the bears become a problem will result in a lot less dead bears. You have an opportunity to avoid the problems we have in the Adirondacks. I share your opinion that the bear canisters are overpriced, but what are you gonna do? I'd pay $100 to keep a bear alive so I'll pay for this. It's not like you're only going to use it once. Think of it as a long term investment. Someday it may come in handy.

Oh, and they do require canisters at many (not all) locations out West.

 

[jbrown]

I share your opinion that the bear canisters are overpriced, but what are you gonna do? I'd pay $100 to keep a bear alive so I'll pay for this. It's not like you're only going to use it once. Think of it as a long term investment. Someday it may come in handy.

Don't forget rentals. Geez, if I had to buy all the gear for all the sports I've tried over the years, I'd have my own business on Ebay selling the crap I've accumulated. Rentals are available at the Loj, any EMS, The Mountaineer and I'm sure lots of other places not in NY for our other NE friends. (I do own a Bear Vault...)

AdackR: Good points. Education is the key right now...

 

[Chip]

Does this mean I, as a college student who makes the bear minimum...

Ha ! BEAR minimum ! funny...
Come on now J&A, you can get one on sale for $60.00, that's only 1200 empties, you could collect that around campus this Sunday, no ?
Seriously, though, these things will become as common as sleeping bags and are a good idea regardless of regulations. Bears are much more common now in areas never seen before and these canisters are easier than hanging.

 

[funkyfreddy]

You can rent a bear canister from EMS at Lake Placid per week for less than half the cost of a tank of gas or a bus ticket. It's also my understanding that this rule only applies to the ADK High Peaks region, it's not as if it's a state or region wide requirement. If the rule REALLY bothers you, hey, camp somewhere else and do day trips instead. Some people complain about the rules in Baxter but to me they're part of what makes the park so pristine. I wouldn't want to see this rule as mandatory for the entire Northeast, but do think it's probably a good idea for the area being discussed.

I also can sympathize with the sentiment that camping/hiking in the High Peaks is being "dumbed down "a little more by this requirement. If you really want to get into this discussion you should sit with one of the HP rangers and listen to their tales of the clueless morons they have to deal with every weekend and all summer long. After listening for a bit you would probably agree that the ADK HP region has been both "dumbed down" and dumped on for a long time, especially around Marcy. If this rule keeps some unprepared and sloppy campers out of the region than that's a bonus in my opinion.

 

[bubba]

All of you are really with it. Good for crazymamma keeping it straight - I rec'd an email from the Finger Lakes Board this morning and had cut it, waiting to paste on the site... busy day and all of you had gotten to the correct place!!

I guess I'll be in agreement with the loss of need to string bags, but I've never had a problem. The bears don't go after me.. I make it too tough and stay away from large sites! The problem exists in high use areas. An earlier post asked if the DEC had ever done anything such as storage vaults. Although I think they should have, they attempted to resolve the problem with cables to string food stuffs to. These were not always used properly or crowded and the bears learned to snatch some of them. Vaults would have been a better test.

I've gotta believe that we will still have novice outdoorsmen arriving without bags. A vault would be a nice option in high volumn sites as a back up, but will never happen now. I'm sure we will all see stacked displays of Bear Cannisters prominently displayed in all of there stores. The word will circulate quickly as I am sure this will be enacted.

Last thought - plenty of hiking room outside of the Eastern HP's area to explore without a bear cannister. If it cramps your style or budget, make the appropriate course changes.

 

[SherpaKroto]

Funny. I used a bear canister for the first time last year on a weeklong stay in the ADK High Peaks. I really enjoyed dropping it on the ground after a hard day hiking. I enjoyed more knowing that my food would be still there when I was hungry. Carrying 38 ounces extra to guarantee food for my trip is a darn inexpensive insurance policy. Face it - the bears are there and they want your food.

I actually took it with me on 2 trips to BSP this winter - not because I needed it, but because it was darn convenient.

 

[masshysteria]

I agree with Quack, that $100, or in my case $70 investment, to save one bear is worth it. Next time you're at the Garden or Upper Works, and there's a NYSDEC wildlife biologist there, ask him what happens to the bears who get too comfy with the campers. They're not getting relocated to Vermont, or shot with a rubber bullet. It's worse than that!

 

[trailcloud]

what happens next

Just a thought.. What happens now after all these years of bears being able to get food most nights from some luckless hiker.(myself included) So now everyone has bear cannisters--the bears can't get food ---where are they going next. I'm guessing they're going to the source--which is us!!! I'm expecting more encounters. They should have done something about this a few years ago. Be it, installing bear proof lockers or mandatory cannisters. I am for the cannisters and currently own one........