new Pemi Loop FAQ

[nartreb]

Inspired by Mohammed's Presi Traverse FAQ, I've published a description of the Pemi Loop. Feedback, corrections, etc welcome. I assume Darren won't mind if we use this thread for that purpose.

Note: it will become significantly more useful once I add the annotated map I'm still working on - trail names, campsites, water, mileage.

In particular, I'd like feedback about the general tone - too cautionary? Not cautionary enough?

Also, I'd be extremely grateful if someone could check my math on the elevation gains.

Edit: maybe I should give a link to the page in question?
Pemi Loop FAQ

 

[Waumbek]

"You should plan on being on your own for at least several hours. . . .This will usually take at least a dozen people and several hours."

This advice is on the low side. The Labor Day carryout from the Bondcliffs mobilized almost 50 people (volunteer SAR, Fish and Game, WMNF, AMC, etc.) and took nearly 12 hours. The patient had to spend the night before that in a tent awaiting rescue. Here's the link. And this was late summer, the patient was hiking with others who came out for help, and who knows how long it would have taken solo if cell phones did not work. Study the carry out reports on this site more closely, the AMC accident reports Mohamed Ellozy writes, or google them to get an accurate estimate.

 

[albee]

I found this blurb interesting and amusing, although it is sound advice:

"Some people like to go REALLY fast: the current speed record (set in August 2005) for the Pemi Loop stands at seven and a half hours. Don't even think about trying to match this until you've got a few marathons under your belt."

Said current record holder (who is a good friend of mine) had never completed an official marathon or ultramarathon before he set this unofficial record. He's simply a really good mountain runner and an avid hiker.

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

For the "BasicLoop"
I get 31.5 miles, elevation 9250'
That's based on the AMC WMG 27th ed. calculated couter-clockwise. Ummm, should be the same both ways

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

In the interest of accuracy

the basic loop takes the Lincoln Woods Trail to the Osseo Trail. At the top of Mt Flume the Franconia Ridge Trail begins.

Actually the Franconia Ridge Trail begins about .1 mile South of the Mt. Flume summit at the junction of the Osseo and Flume Slide Trails.

Another possible source of water is the brook near the Garfield Ridge Campsite. It runs parallel to the Garfield Ridge Trail at the campsite spur. I've seen it flowing in Winter and Summer. (should be treated or filtered)

Anyone seen this brook dry?

 

[nartreb]

Thanks for the feedback.

Waumbek, I'll revise the rescue manpower estimate upwards and give links to sources such as hikesafe.com, though from my reading the Bondcliff episode
was not entirely typical. Note I did say "at least".

Albee, I'll try to think of a phrase like "or equivalent training" that might be more accurate.

NHMtnHkr, I'll add a reference to the Garfield Camp spring. It is reliable, I didn't count it because it's slightly off the main trail but I should have mentioned it as a "detour".

I seem to recall also getting around 9000 feet when I recently did a back-of-the-envelope calculation. I'll have to redo it carefully, sigh...

I'll improve the misleading statement "top of Mt Flume".

 

[nartreb]

OK, here's my detailed listing of trail lengths (based on 26th edition)
All but one of the reverse direction segments are based on countour counting, so probably lower than reality; nearly all the clockwise numbers are straight from the book. My reverse total is lower by 500 feet, which I can live with based on the method used.

trail segment begin segment end segment net REVERSE
location mileage loc mileage mi elev
Lincoln Woods (northbound) kanc 0 osseo tr 1.4 1.4 140 1.4 0
Osseo linc wds trl 0 franc rdg tr 4.1 4.1 2920 4.1 0
franc ridge tr osseo 0 laf summit 5 5 2200 5 400
garf ridge tr (eastbound) laf summit 0 galehead hut 6.6 6.6 1900 6.6 3450
twinway (eastbound) galhead hut 0 bondcliff tr 2.8 2.8 1350 2.8 600
bondcliff tr (southbound) twinway 0 wilderness tr 6.9 6.9 550 6.9 3350
lincoln Woods (southbound) bondcliff tr 0 kanc 4.7 4.7 0 4.7 700
TOTALS REVERSE
31.5 9060 31.5 8500

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

NHMtnHkr, I'll add a reference to the Garfield Camp spring. It is reliable, I didn't count it because it's slightly off the main trail but I should have mentioned it as a "detour".

I was referring to the brook that runs about 10' from the Garfield Ridge Trail at the Garfield Ridge Campsite. It's alot less of a detour than Liberty Spring, Greenleaf Hut, or the Guyot Spring....and I've seen it flowing year round.

 

[nartreb]

I completely forgot about that one (or wasn't paying attention when I passed it). Will add it.

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

OK, here's my detailed listing of trail lengths (based on 26th edition)
All but one of the reverse direction segments are based on countour counting, so probably lower than reality; nearly all the clockwise numbers are straight from the book. My reverse total is lower by 500 feet, which I can live with based on the method used.

trail segment begin segment end segment net REVERSE
location mileage loc mileage mi elev
Lincoln Woods (northbound) kanc 0 osseo tr 1.4 1.4 140 1.4 0
Osseo linc wds trl 0 franc rdg tr 4.1 4.1 2920 4.1 0
franc ridge tr osseo 0 laf summit 5 5 2200 5 400
garf ridge tr (eastbound) laf summit 0 galehead hut 6.6 6.6 1900 6.6 3450
twinway (eastbound) galhead hut 0 bondcliff tr 2.8 2.8 1350 2.8 600
bondcliff tr (southbound) twinway 0 wilderness tr 6.9 6.9 550 6.9 3350
lincoln Woods (southbound) bondcliff tr 0 kanc 4.7 4.7 0 4.7 700
TOTALS REVERSE
31.5 9060 31.5 8500

I see a few errors in your data:
Clockwise:
Lincoln Woods to Mt Flume.......3150'
Mt Flume to Mt Lafayette.........2100'
Mt Laf. to Galehead Hut...........1900'
GH Hut to Bondcliff Trail...........1350'
Bondcliff and Wilderness Trails....650'
..................................Total 9,150'
I get 9,250' calculating counter-clockwise. I assume this is due to rounding errors in the guidebook.

 

[nartreb]

Around Mt Flume, I am measuring my segments from the trail intersection, you are measuring from the summit (the Guide gives both numbers).
Add the Osseo and Franconia Ridge segments together and we have the same total (within 30 feet).
The rest of your measurements are identical to mine except the Bondcliff trail, which I must have done by counting 100-foot contours (ie, surely undercounted). I'll go with your number there.

 

[RoySwkr]

Inspired by Mohammed's Presi Traverse FAQ, I've published a description of the Pemi Loop. Feedback, corrections, etc welcome.

I think the general tone is good, but I have a few comments & corrections

> the current speed record (set in August 2005) for the Pemi Loop stands at
> seven and a half hours.

It would be better to say "it has been done in 7.5 hours" as possibly someone has done it faster, there is no recognized source for reporting times.

> No wood fires anywhere

This is not true, you can build them most places along the route. Perhaps you should link to the WMNF backcountry rules page.

> Rumors and legends assert the existence of bivouac spots ...but these will
> probably prove impossible to locate.

For one thing there is overflow camping near the Liberty Spring Trail which is easy to find.

On a multi-day hike you will presumably be camping in daylight and there will be several acceptable campsites visible. If you are crashing for a few hours without a tent on an extended day hike, you can just curl up along the trail most anywhere and call it a rest break.

I'll bet ME would link to this page if asked.

 

[nartreb]

>It would be better to say "it has been done in 7.5 hours" as possibly someone has done it faster, there is no recognized source for reporting times.

I'm not too worried about this. Anybody claiming a faster time can contact me here or through my website.

>> No wood fires anywhere

>This is not true,...perhaps you should link to the WMNF backcountry rules page.

deleted (must have been wishful thinking) and done.

>On a multi-day hike you will presumably be camping in daylight and there will be several acceptable campsites visible.

The FAQ intentionally takes a discouraging tone on this issue. Truly hardened backcountry bivouacers won't really need a page like this. The major part of the audience, then, is people who could use a reminder to be prepared - including being prepared not to find a convenient camping spot. I've done the loop in daylight and didn't see more than one or two camping spots visible from the trail - at least none that would fit more than one one-man tent.
As a complicating issue, even if you gave me GPS coordinates for a great camping spot, I might not post them, for fear of over-use.
The overflow sites at Liberty Spring are exempt from that last argument, and worth noting on the page, if only as an appendage of the Liberty Spring campsite.

>I'll bet ME would link to this page if asked.

That would be a signal honor. I'll complete the map before I think about asking.

 

[nartreb]

>It would be better to say "it has been done in 7.5 hours" as possibly someone has done it faster, there is no recognized source for reporting times.

I'm not too worried about this. Anybody claiming a faster time can contact me here or through my website.

I recently stumbled upon a reliable report that it was done in 7:26:31 in September 2008. I actually don't recall what the exact time of the 2005 "7.5 hrs" record was, but we might have a new record, unless there's an even faster time I'm not aware of.

Edit: According to Stinkyfeet's comment in another thread,

To the best of my knowledge, the fastest known time on the Pemi Loop is somewhere around 7:25, by Alex Kahl, 2005, and that most likely did not include the side trip West Bond."

So depending on the precisison of "somewhere around 7:25", the 2005 record probably stands.

(Later in the same thread, there's a rumor of a 7:19 time, but that seems to be unfounded.)

 

[Mohamed Ellozy]

I'll bet ME would link to this page if asked.

Somehow I totally missed thie thread when first posted ... strange as I was a much more active VFTTer then than now.

Anyway, a link has been added to my Death Marches page.

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

Somehow I totally missed thie thread when first posted ... strange as I was a much more active VFTTer then than now.

Anyway, a link has been added to my Death Marches page.

Good to visit your Website again, Mohamed. On your longest hike description of the H2H, you might wish to note that the record (12 hrs, 11 min, set in 1963, I believe; there is VftT thread from a couple of years ago) began at Madison, down and across Rt. 16 to Carter, over the Wildcats and back across Rt. 16 to Pinkham, then up to Lakes, etc. (somewhere around 56 miles total, I think?).