NH4s "Double Credit"

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

Ok, here are three questions for your consideration:

1. Which NH4 gets climbed twice most often on the same trip?

2. Should one get "double credit" for climbing these peaks twice on the same trip? (hey, we get "credit" for bagging multiple summits on the same trip, except for the Trailwrights, so....)?

If anyone should like to set up this silliness as a poll, feel free.

Each pair below is set up with the peak climbed twice listed first, and the "out and back to" peak(s) second. Obviously, a loop makes more sense in many cases, but over the years I have met people "double-hiking" all of the peaks listed first.

3. Do you have any other "double credit peaks" in the NH48 to add?

Thanks to Tramper Al in his Katahdin thread for unbeknowingly reminding me to ask these questions.

a. over Lafayette and out and back to Lincoln
b. Lincoln...Lafayette
c. S. Twin...N. Twin
d. N. Twin...S. Twin
e. Eisenhower....Monroe
f. Bond....Bond Cliff
g. Bond Cliff....Bond....W. Bond
h. Liberty...Flume
i. S. Carter...M. Carter
j. M. Carter...S. Carter
k. Wildcat A...Wildcat D
l. Wildcat D...Wildcat A
m. Field...Willey
n. Willey...Field
o. Osceola...E Osceola
p. E. Osceola...Osceola
q. N Kinsman...S Kinsman
r. Others?

 

[Tramper Al]

North Kinsman

Gotta be, gotta be. It was my guess before I saw the list.
All others are on loops of a sort, but the back side of South Kinsman is in my opinion climbed far less frequently than the front. I know of only 2 common ways that one would climb North Kinsman once, not twice.

1. Section hiking the AT (as peakbagger). Via Mt. Wolf, Eliza Brook and so on. It is long way to climb first South Kinsman, then North (once only). This is how I first climbed the peak. In my 3 season peakbagging, I climbed twice only Liberty, South Twin, and Bond, of the 48.

2. Winter hiking with hubris. Awaking at Lonesome Lake early one January morning, a friend and I worked our way through a foot of new snow, fallen overnight, up and over North Kinsman to South. Returning to the col, we thought, let's bushwhack down to Kinsman Pond this way, and minimize our travel on this nice broken trail. And so we did, and boy was that tiring! I took a little nap at the Kinsman Pond shelter, then we eventually traversed the Cannonballs, then Cannon up and back. In winter, I climbed twice only East Osceola, of the 48.

Anyway, North Kinsman is my guess. And no, no double credit here.

Now, I've not yet started to hike the same list a second time, but I would think that I would not start the second until I had finished it the first time. In other words, the only possible double credit situation would be say counting a peak as #47, going beyond it to #48, the back up the first for #1. But, I wouldn't think that would come up often. And I agree with Dave (and the rules). You've got to reach a trailhead to reset ascent credit.

 

[Frodo]

Personally, I don't think that any peak (on your list) should be counted twice unless the person goes back to the original trailhead they started from... BUT I suppose if one if playing by the AMC rules, it's whaterever they dictate...

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

Yikes, thanks, Kevin; both possibilities did not get transcribed from my original list, so:

s. N Tripyramid...M Tripyramid
t. M Tripyramid...N Tripyramid

 

[pepsi]

Wow, I was actually thinking of this earlier today when I was trying to get some kind of a count of how many times I've been up Liberty.

Like on a Pemi loop a while back when we broke into two groups and got to Liberty Springs first, set up, and I headed back over Liberty and back to Flume to find the other group and then back over Liberty again to the tentsite.

I decided to count it as one.

I think it's just fine if somone else counts it differently .

 

[Sherpa John]

When we did N. Kinsman and S. Kinsman a few weeks ago.. I said how we "actually" Hiked 3 4k's in a day... but I only counted N. Kinsman once.

 

[David Metsky]

The most common interpretation of the rules (as confirmed by the 4000'er committee) is that you must hit a trailhead (not necessarily the one you started at) between subsequent hikes of the same peak. So, no, most of those described wouldn't be able to count twice.

For example, if you go up North Kinsman, over to South and back to north, you can't count North again because you haven't climbed it twice from a trailhead.

If you climbed Moosilauke from the Ravine Lodge, went down Glencliff, around Mud Ponds and up Benton, you could count Moosilauke twice because you hiked it from a trailhead twice.

I've never climbed South Kinsman without climbing North Kinsman over and back. That's the only pair of peaks I can say that about.

-dave-

 

[el-bagr]

Congrats on a job well done -- you all have lured me into this discussion despite my not really worrying about "the rules". Indeed, I picked this user name years ago to poke gentle fun at all of you peakbaggers -- and look at me now.

A few questions:

1. Is there an "official" interpretation of what it means to have a "second round"? Under the "official" interpretation, can you count any peaks toward a second round before you've finished your first round?

2. If you do accept a liberal theory of "double counting", what is the triggering criterion allowing you to double-count? Must you tag the summit of another 4k peak? Is there a separate minimum col depth requirement? For example, surely if I go to Eisenhower's summit, run 50 yards north, turn around, and summit again, double-counting would be frivolous. What if I go to the Edmands/Crawford Path junction before turning back? What if I go to Mt Franklin? Must I go all the way to Mt Monroe?

As Dave says, the AMC rules wouldn't provide double-counting for any of these because I didn't go back to a trailhead. IMO this makes sense -- or at least I don't think a more liberal view of double-counting makes sense, personally.

Todd
(not counting )

 

[Sherpa John]

What about if one went to the col and back?

 

[Mad Townie]

To continue the absurdity, what if you climbed one for the first time just before the official time of the autumnal equinox, then the time occurred before you hit the col on your way back to climb it the second time. A summer and a winter ascent? What constitutes the trailhead in a situation like that?

Oh, and about that one hand clapping . . .

 

[Tramper Al]

To continue the absurdity, what if you climbed one for the first time just before the official time of the autumnal equinox, then the time occurred before you hit the col on your way back to climb it the second time. A summer and a winter ascent? What constitutes the trailhead in a situation like that?

Absurd, maybe, but it does come up.

First off, 'hitting the col' does meet any of the 'rules' that I am aware of. Anyone is welcome to make his/her own rules of course.

Now, if by 'summer' you mean 'all season', and we change your 'col' to 'any trailhead', then I would say that both climbs qualify as all season ascents, and the second as an autumn ascent (but there are no official rules for autumn). I think you'd have missed a winter ascent by a fair margin, as autumnal equinox is typically about Sept 21st, a good 91+ days prior to winter in this hemisphere.

 

[Mad Townie]

Well, I suppose I could have gone back and edited quickly, but it serves me right just to be embarrassed. Equinox, indeed!!!

Funny thing is I was thinking "solstice" then thought, "Wait a second--fall is equinox, not solstice." Talk about compounding the folly.

I always use "summer" for "all season"--the latter makes me think of tires. Yeah, I know it's technically incorrect, but I try to save technical correctness for work. Which reminds me . . .

 

[David Metsky]

Again, the generally accepted rule in the Whites (but not the only one) is that you must start and finish the hike in winter for a hike to count as a winter hike. That is, you must make it back to the road before the spring equinox or start after the winter solstice for the hike to count. The Daks go by calendar day, I believe.

When I finished my first round, I had only done about half the peaks multiple times. I probably did all 48 again between then and completing my second round, but I wasn't keeping very close track. I just went by simple counts on all the peaks, but I think to be more "true" it would be best to climb all 48 after finishing your first (or second, or third) set. But frankly, by that point I'm just out to hike.

-dave-

 

[Tramper Al]

I always use "summer" for "all season"--the latter makes me think of tires.

Yup, me too. Maybe 'ANY season' is the way to go, sounds very flexible.

Not too long ago I looked back at my any season 48, to see what my progress was like on lists for spring, summer and fall. I have bagged peaks appallingly infrequently in spring, as it turns out.

 

[Double Bow]

Actually, there is nothing saying that you can't start on you second round before you've finished your first (just ask two fisted drinkers). As long as they are on seperate trips (from trailheads, not cols), it's OK. After all, it's the number of times you've done them, not what order you've done them in. Just because someone climbs Mt Washington multiple times before they've finished their first go 'round doesn't mean it shouldn't count towards the second. That would be like saying that once you've finished the 4Ks and you decide that you want to do the 100 Highest you need to do the 4s over again.

 

[Mike P.]

To add more absurdity to it, I've counted S. Twice back in 1995. Went over Garfield, Twins & back to Galehead Hut first day (hit Galehead before dinner)

Next day went back up South Twin, over the Bonds, (only counted Bond 1x) back over South Twin to hut, opicked up gear & went back to car via Gale River & the road. Felt like cheating to count 2x on the first day from North Twin after getting up the first time felt liek cheating coming back from Bonds. But that early morning climb up the Twinway felt real.

(Okay since then I've done in twice in Spring in two different months, twice on 10/30 - 98 & 99 & in Winter so counting one extra time won't be putting me in some club I don't belong in based on strict rule intrepretration.

 

[Raymond]

I think the idea of the double-credit first occurred to me in 2000 when we went over Algonquin to Iroquois, then had to reclimb Algonquin to get back to Wright and the trailhead... but I didn't count Algonquin twice.

In the White Mountains, back in 1984, I went with an AMC group to Lafayette. We spent Saturday night at Greenleaf Hut, then reclimbed Lafayette Sunday, followed the ridge over Lincoln and Little Haystack down to Liberty, then went down Liberty Spring Trail to the old Route 3 and back to Lafayette Place. I didn't credit myself with a second ascent of Lafayette because of the one-mile descent to the hut.

Dave M. is probably correct when he suggests that North Kinsman is probably most frequently climbed over twice between South Kinsman and the trailhead.

What is the preferred route for tackling Bond? If from the north, it would not be necessary to recross West Bond to get back to the trailhead, but you would have to cross back over Bondcliff if coming in from the south.

Are Willey, Field, and Tom usually done as a three-fer? Maybe, but they wouldn't have to be, so I don't think that Field would be one of the top doublers.

Maybe Wildcat D is up there, although it's possible that Wildcat A is hit from Carter Notch as often as it is from Route 16, while not all of those notch-to-A climbers would necessarily go on to Wildcat D (then back over A).

Good question, anyway. I wonder if the over-and-backs are more obvious in the Adirondacks (Colvin-Blake-Colvin; Donaldson-Emmons-Donaldson; South Dix (Carson)-East Dix (Grace)-South Dix; Algonquin-Iroquois-Algonquin, although it is possible to avoid Algonquin in one direction by going through Avalanche Pass.

In Maine, definitely Saddleback-The Horn-Saddleback. Maybe South Crocker-Crocker-South Crocker, too.

What about Abraham and Ellen in Vermont? Two separate trips? A one-way with a car spotted at the other end? Or an out-and-back, all the way to the farther one and back again? (And if either of the latter two options, from which end does one start?)

 

[--M.]

Sir Launcelot, a very brave and influential knight:

Please! Please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion! Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who.

 

[Umsaskis]

I don't think anything should be counted twice - if climbing something twice is required as part of the out and back for another peak, that's what makes up the climb for that second peak.

In NH, N. Kinsman and N. Twin probably are the most common double climbs in a day. In the Adirondacks, the Sewards are the killer for double climbs in a day because you have to reclimb two of them if you retrace your route and it's a long hike to begin with.

Now, how about the number of times you walk the same long access route - the road from Corey's, the Ausable Club Road, the Wilderness Trail. Sometimes those can get very old at the end of a long day. (Shucks, I'm only at the Black Pond Trailhead? Just keep thinking about pizza and sleep....)

 

[sapblatt]

But frankly, by that point I'm just out to hike.

-dave-

I sincerely hope by the time I have hiked them that many times I am just out to hike too! The lists are a bit obsessive....they have such a grip on me I feel like a junky!