NH4s "Double Credit"

[Double Bow]

The lists... the lists... must... answer their call... must bushwack viewless summits...

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

Hey, folks, I put the "double credit" in quotes to indicate my tongue in cheek.

But, great comments so far, including "Are Willey, Field, and Tom usually done as a three-fer? Maybe, but they wouldn't have to be, so I don't think that Field would be one of the top doublers."

It was when standing on Field late this past Friday afternoon as the rain began coming down that I got to thinking about "double credit" again, as I usually do an out-and-back to Willey from Field, after Tom ("a three-fer"), to avoid the need for car-spotting or hitch-hiking. Having a hiking partner with an extra car to spot does save a couple of miles and some elevation gain climbing back up Field a second time, but comes at the price of driving that second vehicle from wherever.

I think that I agree with the folks who suggest that North Kinsman is the most often "twice climbed" NH4 on one trip. But, there still seems to be little concensus on #2, #3, etc.

 

[Raymond]

On my return to Field after visiting Willey (en route to Tom), it began to hail. This was in July 2000. The hail returned "in force" when I was atop Tom. Memorable experience. Cherished, too.

 

[Jaytrek57]

I would venture to say that Pierce sees a lot of "double-dipping".

Peace.

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

"I'm not sure why Eisenhower/Monroe is in here, how would this be 2 climbs?"

A lot of people hike Monroe out-and-back from Crawfords, up and over Eisenhower both directions because it is easier than using the overgrown part of the Crawford Path around Eisenhower, especially in the winter.

I agree that the Osceola's problably cancel out one another out for a second place "Double Credit" bid, with Osceola East getting doubled when the Tripoli Road is closed and Osceola Main getting doubled when TR open. The metaphor for this is the Wild Card in MLB.

 

[Mike P.]

Based on the greater number of summer hikers & that many people don't complete the 48 but Osceola's are done early on by those who don't do list or complete it due to their ease - from Tripoli - by many more people than the other way around. Any good weekend when the road is open, the Tripoli lot is filled & there cars parked on the side of the road, I've never seen that on 112 the Greeley Ponds approach in summer. it's a lot harder, IMO

(that brings another question - what peaks were often the first done by people or first 5 as I suspect Franconia's & Washington get many who do them first as they rate as being the highest or the most published day hike loop - Yankee, Walking, BP, - I assume it's in at least one of the 50 Hikes books - Washington was my first)

Washington, Flume, Liberty, Lincoln, Cannon - Washington as I started as a highpointer, did all NE before Washington (Mansfield would be first of the NE 4), Franconia Ridge hike was to re-do trip that sent us retreating back the previous November & Cannon because it was not that hard & girlfriend (now wife) & I were in good shape so we did not feel we had to do easiest one.

 

[RoySwkr]

2. Should one get "double credit" for climbing these peaks twice on the same trip? (hey, we get "credit" for bagging multiple summits on the same trip, except for the Trailwrights, so....)?

I vote no, only once per trip from road. Otherwise where is the breakpoint, can a tap dancer count 10,000 ascents of Bond in an hour?

Maybe 'ANY season' is the way to go, sounds very flexible.

Many people (including in the 48 movie) say "all season" for what is really "any season". "All season" hikers of the NH48 are very rare, I'll bet they've been done less often in Spring than Winter.

To continue the absurdity, what if you climbed one for the first time just before the official time of the autumnal equinox, then the time occurred before you hit the col on your way back to climb it the second time.

My rule would be to count as winter hikes only hikes done entirely in winter, as April hikes only those entirely in April, etc. This means that some ascents would not count for any particular season or any particular month. Note that Eric Savage is more lenient and he is more "official" than I am.

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

"I vote no, only once per trip from road. Otherwise where is the breakpoint, can a tap dancer count 10,000 ascents of Bond in an hour?"

Only if the tap dancer could descend to a col and climb either West Bond or Bond Cliff, and then reclimb Bond again 10,000 times in an hour.

 

[RoySwkr]

"I vote no, only once per trip from road. Otherwise where is the breakpoint, can a tap dancer count 10,000 ascents of Bond in an hour?"

Only if the tap dancer could descend to a col and climb either West Bond or Bond Cliff, and then reclimb Bond again 10,000 times in an hour.

You missed my point, which is that once you depart from the AMC
rule than an ascent begins and ends at the road, who is to say what an
ascent is? Do you go to another peak (must it be 4k?), the col, down
200', down one foot, down one inch?

If someone tells me they climbed Bond 5 times in winter, I assume that
means 5 times from the road, not spent a day running between Bond and
West Bond with a fanny pack. Do you really feel otherwise?

 

[RoySwkr]

Here are my figures, converted to % for comparison, based on number of
ascents of first-named peak from road :

a. over Lafayette and out and back to Lincoln 0%
b. Lincoln...Lafayette 0%
c. S. Twin...N. Twin 18%
d. N. Twin...S. Twin 36%
e. Eisenhower....Monroe 0%
f. Bond....Bond Cliff 7%
g. Bond Cliff....Bond....W. Bond 0%
h. Liberty...Flume 10%
i. S. Carter...M. Carter 38%
j. M. Carter...S. Carter 0%
k. Wildcat A...Wildcat D 0%
l. Wildcat D...Wildcat A 0%
m. Field...Willey 25%
n. Willey...Field 0%
o. Osceola...E Osceola 20%
p. E. Osceola...Osceola 36%
q. N Kinsman...S Kinsman 50%
r. Others? NOT ME, BUT I HAVE SEEN SOME IN TRIP REPORTS
s. N Tripyramid...M Tripyramid 9%
t. M Tripyramid...N Tripyramid 0%

There are 3 "close ones" where you climb nearly but not all the way to
the summit. If double counting is allowed, a short side trip will juice your count:
c1 Pierce trail jct...Eisenhower 36%
c2 Wildcat D ski trail...Wildcat A 33%
c3 Zealand trail jct...Bonds 10%

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

"There are 3 "close ones" where you climb nearly but not all the way to
the summit. If double counting is allowed, a short side trip will juice your count:
c1 Pierce trail jct...Eisenhower 36%
c2 Wildcat D ski trail...Wildcat A 33%
c3 Zealand trail jct...Bonds 10%"


Ah, ha! Soime real data from RoySwkr!

Much as some might have expected: 1) N Kinsman...S Kinsman, 2) S Carter...M Carter, 3tie) N Twin...S Twin, 3tie) E Osceola...Osceola.

Sure, let's add Zealand and Pierce; I was already thinking l.) Wildcat D...Wildcat A by either the Wildcat Ridge Trail or a ski trail.

Anyone else with some real data??

 

[JohnL]

Okay, I give up.

c. S. Twin...N. Twin 18%

18% of what?

JohnL

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

I was assuming that 18% of the times N Twin gets climbed, S Twin gets climbed twice ("double credit")......although I may be mistaken, the comparison of "double-climbed" peaks on the same trip is the objective of using %s or whatever, I think.......

 

[Tramper Al]

Anyone else with some real data??

Here are my counts below, from memory, if I have tallied correctly. I have left them as fractions for use in the inevitable meta-analysis.

You can see a couple of things from my listings. First, I really prefer to hike 'thru' from one point to another, rather than out and back, if at all possible. Many of these I hiked first as AT sections. Second, most of them I have hiked only twice, and TFW only once. I tend to move on the next list or other outdoors project.

a. over Lafayette and out and back to Lincoln 0 of 4
b. Lincoln...Lafayette 0 of 4
c. S. Twin...N. Twin 0 of 2
d. N. Twin...S. Twin 0 of 3
e. Eisenhower....Monroe 0 of 2
f. Bond....Bond Cliff 1 of 2
g. Bond Cliff....Bond....W. Bond 0 of 2
h. Liberty...Flume 1 of 2
i. S. Carter...M. Carter 0 of 2
j. M. Carter...S. Carter 0 of 2
k. Wildcat A...Wildcat D 0 of 2
l. Wildcat D...Wildcat A 0 of 2
m. Field...Willey 0 of 1
n. Willey...Field 0 of 1
o. Osceola...E Osceola 0 of 2
p. E. Osceola...Osceola 1 of 2
q. N Kinsman...S Kinsman 0 of 2
r. Others?
s. N Tripyramid...M Tripyramid 0 of 2
t. M Tripyramid...N Tripyramid 1 of 2

 

[RoySwkr]

Okay, I give up.
c. S. Twin...N. Twin 18%
18% of what?

I was assuming that 18% of the times N Twin gets climbed, S Twin gets climbed twice ("double credit")

Almost but not quite. From the original note:
"based on number of ascents of first-named peak from road "

* The denominator is the number of times I have climbed S Twin, based on counting it only once per trip from the road.

* The numerator is the number of times I have continued to N Twin and then returned over S Twin.

So if I climbed S Twin 11 times from the road and went on to N Twin and returned on 2 of them, I would have actually passed over S Twin twice on 18%.

the comparison of "double-climbed" peaks on the same trip is the objective of using %s or whatever, I think.......

I used % to adjust because I haven't climbed all peaks the same number of times. I'm not sure from your original question whether you wish to normalize the data in this manner - it may instead be that if Osceola is climbed twice as often as Kinsman that you want the double counts to reflect this. Perhaps I should have left the 2/11 as I originally typed it.

 

[Eric Savage]

My rule would be to count as winter hikes only hikes done entirely in winter, as April hikes only those entirely in April, etc. This means that some ascents would not count for any particular season or any particular month. Note that Eric Savage is more lenient and he is more "official" than I am.

Was that you I had this conversation with? Or was it another thread?

The only "official" rule is the one concerning winter ascents (must start and end during astronomical winter) since the FTFC doesn't officially recognize any other variations.

The other comments are just my own opinion. Specifically, I count seasons according to date and time of the equinox/solstice and cross-season trips are counted in the "easier" season (i.e. summer is easier than spring/fall, spring/fall is easier than winter). In regard to months, I would say that you couldn't count the same peak in two different months on the same trip (unless there was a trailhead reached in between) but that different peaks peaks could count for different months. For example: July 31: I hike Hale, Zealand to Guyot Shelter and go up West Bond for sunset; next day I hit West Bond again, the other two Bonds and out the Wilderness Trail. Hale and Zealand count for July, Bond and Bonfcliff for August; West Bond can count for either July or August but not both.
(And this is probably way too much hairsplitting except for those of us who have actually followed the thread all the way to here.)