No more Mount Washington avalanche forecasts; possible Tucks closure

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Mike P. said:
My point would be that cars at trailheads regardless of where they are from would be needless. Having an in state license plate does not mean they are local? I agree what's in place is clear and reflect common sense. I'm discouraged when Mayors and Governors in towns & states that rely on tourism make blanket policy against people who live close by but out of state. Discouraged that in some cases it's needed also because people are unable to stay out of bars or crowded beaches or off crowded summits. Discouraged that when local Mayors, (GA), make policy to protect their people, the Governor decides to open the beaches so people can travel to them.

This will continue for some time, I just heard today that one of the more popular NJ beach towns is closing their boardwalk until 7/1. I would expect Cape Cod, the Westerly beaches and others to follow suit. Thinking they picked 7/1 as they hope to save their busy season, however, as we see in South Korea and China, going back too soon can mean a new spike in infected people & a set back. This may be the new normal for quite some time. Vacations may be canceled & certainly the happiest place on earth (not for me but it's their slogan) will not be happy for sometime. At least one pundit has brought up the possibility that there will no NFL season either. Is anyone looking forward to a cruise or a plane trip anytime soon?

April's not even a great month for hiking up north any way.
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As I said in another thread, people are incapable of social distancing regardless of what the gov tells them they should and shouldn't do. Until there's a vaccine, staying away from others is the new normal if you want to stay healthy. Of course, economic considerations are relevant as well. Many folks have jobs that require a certain amount of contact and we can't keep the economy suppressed indefinitely. Thus, vaccine is the critical path to getting back to normal.
 
Randolph is a very small town with no real places to gather even if someone wanted to. About the only gathering place is the town hall/library and possibly Lowe's Store . There have been concerns about the early return of summer residents from outside the area and all property owners in town received a request in the mail that anyone considering moving up early should not and anyone doing so would need to do a total 14 day lock down, with zero exceptions. No doubt the year rounders who tend to keep an eye on the summer places in the off season have very good idea or any earlybirds. Many of the summer places are not winterized and may not even have running water yet.

I did notice the person in my neighborhood from NYC who has maintained a spare home since just after Sept 11th, has moved up and now has NH plates on her big black SUV which previously had very obvious orange and black plates.
 
NHClimber said:
As I said in another thread, people are incapable of social distancing regardless of what the gov tells them they should and shouldn't do. Until there's a vaccine, staying away from others is the new normal if you want to stay healthy. Of course, economic considerations are relevant as well. Many folks have jobs that require a certain amount of contact and we can't keep the economy suppressed indefinitely. Thus, vaccine is the critical path to getting back to normal.
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We should be aiming for "vaccine OR therapeutic drugs." The idea that a vaccine (which is 12-18 months away best case) is the *ONLY* solution guarantees the economic shutdown will progress into a great depression.

Of note:

>After 40 years of HIV, there is still no vaccine. Yet due to therapeutic drugs, many infected people are living normal lives.

>The seasonal flu vaccine varies widely in effectiveness from year to year, due to the difficulty of guessing which strain is coming. Some years, 75% effective; other years, 15% effective. Annual flu deaths average 37K over the last ten years. So while there is alway "a vaccine" we have come to understand that we cannot count on its effectiveness.

I don't want to put all our eggs in only one basket.
 
TCD said:
We should be aiming for "vaccine OR therapeutic drugs." The idea that a vaccine (which is 12-18 months away best case) is the *ONLY* solution guarantees the economic shutdown will progress into a great depression.

Of note:

>After 40 years of HIV, there is still no vaccine. Yet due to therapeutic drugs, many infected people are living normal lives.

>The seasonal flu vaccine varies widely in effectiveness from year to year, due to the difficulty of guessing which strain is coming. Some years, 75% effective; other years, 15% effective. Annual flu deaths average 37K over the last ten years. So while there is alway "a vaccine" we have come to understand that we cannot count on its effectiveness.

I don't want to put all our eggs in only one basket.
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Wholeheartedly agree with this. If we can manage the symptoms and guarantee positive outcomes when someone gets it I'll feel much better about interacting with the public again. I never get the annual flu vaccine because it seems, at least anecdotally in my experience, you get the flu anyway even if you have the vaccine. Feels like a money making thing to me for pharmaceutical companies. Again, my un-researched opnion.

I'd also add that until we can massively scale up testing for everyone (not just symptomatic people) and properly identify who has the virus, who is carrying it and who may be immune from the antibodies it is hard to imagine a return to "business as usual". This unfortunately doesn't seem like it will be happening anytime soon either, although at least we're seeing developments on that front.
 
DayTrip said:
Wholeheartedly agree with this. If we can manage the symptoms and guarantee positive outcomes when someone gets it I'll feel much better about interacting with the public again. I never get the annual flu vaccine because it seems, at least anecdotally in my experience, you get the flu anyway even if you have the vaccine. Feels like a money making thing to me for pharmaceutical companies. Again, my un-researched opnion.

I'd also add that until we can massively scale up testing for everyone (not just symptomatic people) and properly identify who has the virus, who is carrying it and who may be immune from the antibodies it is hard to imagine a return to "business as usual". This unfortunately doesn't seem like it will be happening anytime soon either, although at least we're seeing developments on that front.
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I agree with both. Not only did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night but I do play a pessimist in real life also. I suspect, because you can't have a rally socially distanced because it looks bad & others are pushing to open up before we can do anymore than take temperatures, I see a relapse happening & then the light goes on about having testing for most if not all instead of testing only just the ill, or rich.

How will people tailgate or sit in crowded football stadiums or at NASCAR events? Who will invent a mask that will allow for consuming mass quantities and keeping the mask on at the same time? Someone from France with a pointy head perhaps?
 
Sadly my guess is it will not. Folks look out their window at green grass in southern NH and Mass, assume its spring up north and hop in the car and hit their favorite spring trails.
 
Yeah, nothing will make a difference except vaccines or other treatments. Antibody-only hiking clubs, stores and brothels might be the future...
 
JoshandBaron said:
If this is the thing that makes people stay home it's 1) good and 2) really sad that making a peak not "count" towards an arbitrary list is a more effective deterrent than the increased possibility of killing people.
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That was my thought too. Exactly how important is a stupid patch for people? I miss the mountains because I miss the mountains, not because it's screwing up my Facebook bragging and my 4k spreadsheets. Good grief. What a screwed up world we are living in.
 
DayTrip said:
That was my thought too. Exactly how important is a stupid patch for people? I miss the mountains because I miss the mountains, not because it's screwing up my Facebook bragging and my 4k spreadsheets. Good grief. What a screwed up world we are living in.
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Different strokes for differnt folks :) HYOH.

You-know-you-are-a-peakbagger-when
You-know-you-are-NOT-a-peakbagger-when

I am disappointed, but not devestated, that I am asked not to hike in April (and likely May) of this year... Yes, I am a peakbagger and most of my outstanding grid peaks fall into these two months, and I budgeted work and family time to dent them this year, and it's not gonna happen.

Tim
 
bikehikeskifish said:
Different strokes for differnt folks :) HYOH.

You-know-you-are-a-peakbagger-when
You-know-you-are-NOT-a-peakbagger-when

I am disappointed, but not devestated, that I am asked not to hike in April (and likely May) of this year... Yes, I am a peakbagger and most of my outstanding grid peaks fall into these two months, and I budgeted work and family time to dent them this year, and it's not gonna happen.

Tim
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To be clear, I am referring to peak bagging during the shelter-in-place orders and the pandemic, not general peak bagging in normal times. Worrying about a list at a time like this and defying state guidance for a "check mark" seems pretty selfish and irresponsible. We all have plans that are getting trashed right now but we need to think big picture about it. "Hiking your own hike" right now could have grave consequences for other people and communities.
 
DayTrip said:
To be clear, I am referring to peak bagging during the shelter-in-place orders and the pandemic, not general peak bagging in normal times. Worrying about a list at a time like this and defying state guidance for a "check mark" seems pretty selfish and irresponsible. We all have plans that are getting trashed right now but we need to think big picture about it. "Hiking your own hike" right now could have grave consequences for other people and communities.
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I was addressing I miss the mountains, not because it's screwing up my Facebook bragging and my 4k spreadsheets. -- and pointing out that for some people, that is important, and it's OK if they are disappointed. Not that it's OK to be selfish and go. Some people are telling others how to feel (not you nor VFTT specifically, but FB is full of 'them').

Do You Feel Like We Do?

Tim
 
This pandemic has brought out the best and worst in people for sure. I've unfollowed a few FB friends that became very aggressive, when I mentioned that I hiked. I'm pretty much following the guidelines and believe its very important to do so. That being said, I am driving a hour or so to hike. I don't stop going up or coming back. I do not see that as a problem. I am still working and need to get out on my days off. If I had to guess, things will not be normal for quite some time. I'm very disappointed in how this whole thing has been handled. They should be testing everyone to establish a baseline. That's the only way you can set up a plan of who works, what you can open up, right now they say, just stay home, not enough by a long stretch.
 
TJsName said:
It's a deep philosophical question that I see a lot of people struggle with: needs vs wants. People often conflate (often subconsciously) their 'wants' as 'needs' in order to justify an action, especially around materialistic things. I don't think people dispute the primary needs (food, water, air, etc.) that keep us biologically alive. It's the secondary needs where things get tricky and, I think where the debates (arguments) arise. Rather than debate the merit of everyone's perceived needs, I'd suggest a simple test to run through to confirm it's a need:

What happens if we don't do/get the thing?
Are there alternatives to the thing to replace what is lost?

Using the hiking example:
What happens if we don't hike? We might get bored; We lose fitness; etc. Being health, physically and mentally are obviously valid needs.
Are there alternatives? Probably - there are other ways to stay fit and have fun. It might take some creativity/effort to find those

Suggesting that hiking is need feels like arguing that someone needs to eat pizza. The implied (and fallacious) argument is: We need to eat food to stay alive, and pizza is food, therefore we need to eat pizza to stay alive. Obviously, we don't need to eat pizza to stay alive. We want pizza. Or at least I do. :)
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I find your post interesting, in that you come across as your opinion is fact. Let me put it this way, you go to your second home in NH correct? Is that really a need or a want? You obviously see it as a need or your theory holds no water. I really mean no offense, but I just found it interesting.
 
TJsName said:
It's a deep philosophical question that I see a lot of people struggle with: needs vs wants. People often conflate (often subconsciously) their 'wants' as 'needs' in order to justify an action, especially around materialistic things. I don't think people dispute the primary needs (food, water, air, etc.) that keep us biologically alive. It's the secondary needs where things get tricky and, I think where the debates (arguments) arise. Rather than debate the merit of everyone's perceived needs, I'd suggest a simple test to run through to confirm it's a need:

What happens if we don't do/get the thing?
Are there alternatives to the thing to replace what is lost?

Using the hiking example:
What happens if we don't hike? We might get bored; We lose fitness; etc. Being health, physically and mentally are obviously valid needs.
Are there alternatives? Probably - there are other ways to stay fit and have fun. It might take some creativity/effort to find those

Suggesting that hiking is need feels like arguing that someone needs to eat pizza. The implied (and fallacious) argument is: We need to eat food to stay alive, and pizza is food, therefore we need to eat pizza to stay alive. Obviously, we don't need to eat pizza to stay alive. We want pizza. Or at least I do. :)
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As the Italian in the room, Need, yes. (oddly my parents did the 23 & me & my 100% Italian Father's family lived in a part of Italy that during the empire apparently was invaded often....:D

Actually I was going to Quote bikehikeskifish's message, however, the pizza punchline better. Needing some time in nature to decompress may be a need and now a want. Whether you hike, bike, climb & how you hike, as we've seen some of us might consider what others do as a stroll or a death march depending on where you are on the curve.

As far as FB goes and social media goes, Social Media is neither. Commenting on people's cat videos, showing pictures of you hiking, drinking, what food you are eating & that you like RomCom's and Coke not Pepsi is not social. It's not a half hour phone call or skype or 8 hours hiking or sitting with anyone. As BHSF mentioned, people who don't know each other act anti-socially telling people what to do or feel insulated in saying things over the www knowing they may never see these people.

Considering that FB can not proof all the data on it for accuracy or sources, it's not media either.
 
TJsName said:
No offense taken (and none meant by my post). :)

Re my trip to NH, it's absolutely a want. It's more convenient for working remote (my wife has an office space there), and us and the dogs have more outdoor space for those few hours that we're not working right now. I weigh the risks based on the information at hand and think they are acceptable. You appear to do the same with your hiking, and from what I've seen, most of my friends and acquaintances are doing with their activities. It sounds like you might have had some interactions with some black/white thinkers, whereas most of the people I have been communicating with seem to get the spirit of the rules.

We need to stay sane, it's a question of how we want to go about that. My comment was meant to get people to consider the want vs need question more carefully.
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I think we are on the same page for sure. Your premise is a good one and yes, we all need to rethink some of our most basic life functions. I (don't laugh) love grocery shopping. I find it therapeutic and relaxing, not anymore. Now its the number one task, I would rather not do. I've gone from being a single guy, going every 3 days or so, to going every 8 days or so and stocking up when I go to limit my exposure. I think my risk to myself and others when I hike is very low, but that's because I have thought it through and make it that way. Anywho, good exchange here, we all are learning and adapting as we go through this.
 
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