On helping unprepared hikers, group hikes, and hike leadership

[SherpaWill]

I did a hike a few years back with someone I figured knew what to bring based on his experience, only to find out as it was getting dark he didn't have a headlamp or flashlight. It was hard to hide how ticked off I was. We made it out OK and oddly enough I haven't hiked with him since.

 

[TJsName]

I did a hike a few years back with someone I figured knew what to bring based on his experience, only to find out as it was getting dark he didn't have a headlamp or flashlight. It was hard to hide how ticked off I was. We made it out OK and oddly enough I haven't hiked with him since.

I did a sunrise hike back in June. We spotted my car at Smarts Brook - while going through it I offered my buddy a head lamp, but he said he had one. Once we parked at the Algonquin Trail we discovered that while he did have a headlamp, the batteries were dead. I ended up putting mine in 'glow' mode (whatever the opposite of spotlight is) and he was able to follow me without a problem. He just waited for me to turn around at the scrambles and I gave him a heads up for anything odd (mostly mud warnings). Probably wouldn't have worked with just a cheapo headlamp though.

 

[Dana]

Three Boston men were rescued by state Fish and Game officers after getting lost...
The hikers... had an automobile GPS with them that they used to relay their location to Gorham police.

That's not lost, they knew exactly where they were, just too stupid to know where that was...

 

[DayTrip]

I'd rather open my mouth, say what I think and have them think I'm an ass#$%^ than have someone wander off into danger. You can't force someone to be prepared but at least you can raise the thought and hopefully it sinks in for them before bad things happen.

Earlier this summer I did Owl Head and was about 45 minutes back from the unofficial trailhead to the ledges when I passed three people in golf shirts and sneakers. Only one had a small backpack. They asked how far until the summit of Owl Head. The sky was already rumbling with impending thunderstorms and it was 2PM. Thinking of what they would come upon in lightning and heavy rain, both on Owl Head's ledges and those two difficult river crossings coming back I gave my polite opinion and recommended they turn around. They smiled and continued on. Just after I cleared the second tough river crossing a microburst rolled through with high winds (70mph+ as I learned later watching the news) and torrential rains, which lasted until I was about 1/2 mile from the Lincoln Woods parking area. The trail had 6" of water, never mind those river crossings. Can only imagine how dangerous the ledges were in that weather. I watched the evening news and morning news next day and didn't see any segments about stranded hikers so I assume they managed but they obviously had no clue what they were getting into.

Most of these times people get out with just some discomfort and a lesson learned. As many people have previously expressed we've all been "that guy"" at some point. I once (many years ago!) climbed Mt Washington in badly worn out basketball sneakers, denim shorts, a Patriots sweatshirt, two Snickers bars and a bottle of Gatorade. It went just fine. Most "tourist" types only go out on nice days, on the more popular trails with lots of people, where the probability of a bad ending is fairly low despite their ignorance. On harder and more remote trails, in the Fall, Winter and Spring it is a different story and I don't mind pointing out you're an idiot if I think it might save you from serious injury or worse. I'd rather have you think I'm a jerk and go home to your family to tell everyone what a jerk you met on the trail than the alternative.

 

[TEO]

Curious on everyone's reactions if they saw someone walking along in the vicinity of Edmunds Col ... carrying a beer would've been?

I'd ask if you had one to spare.

 

[Grey J]

The trip maxed out a 20 in 30 minutes. It now has a wait list of 19 additional. I didn't want to go for 20, but I was feeling sorry for them. Now I feel sorry for me, but I may have some help.

I'm not sure you're doing anyone (including the rest of us on the trail) any favor by taking a group of 20. Maybe your first lesson should be that groups max out at 10. Sorry, just my opinion, maybe you plan to split them up.

 

[sierra]

Im not afraid at all to tell someone they should turn around. Someone ask me they get an honest answer, they don't ask, I rarely say anything. There are so many factors, I may not know about. I tend to mind my own business and let them find out on their own. I have never given away gear, imo they will know what they where missing at the end of the day and they can go buy it. When I started out, I was missing many important pieces of gear and clothing, but I learned by suffering. I once ran into a group on Lions head, near the Tucks junction, they where not dressed even close to the conditions, one dude had a hoody on! While I did have a spare jacket, I did not offer it, I offered advice instead, simply put, I said if you don't go down now, your in a world of ****, have a good day and I left.

 

[akafuzzjones]

I think there are more unprepared hikers out there then there are prepared ones to give them advice. It's not always the novices though that are unprepared - there are many experienced ones out there that skimp on the essentials in effort to shed pack weight. I have been out with people who I thought would know better but when it got dark they didn't have a headlamp. When asked why they didn't have it they responded "I used to carry one all of the time but I never used it so I started leaving it at home.

Sometimes I look at the inexperienced people like the ones mentioned earlier in this thread - totally inexperienced and completely unprepared - and cut them a little slack. While they should have done more research and have been better prepared, they don't know what they don't know. I find that these people are often open to suggestions about the trail ahead, their level of preparation, etc. They want to have a fun day and the woods and simply bit of more than they could chew. There's an opportunity there to educate them on what to do and what to expect.

I think I'm more worried about the experienced hikers that should know better - you see their posts and pictures every weekend on Facebook. They are the ones that came face-to-face with danger and persevered. They didn't back down when the going got tough, they simply charged forward. There is a fine line between "challenging" and "foolish" and it gets crossed on a regular basis. Then when they post their tales of daring-do their friends encourage to repeat those foolish decisions by telling them that they are a "rock star" or "badass". Instead of learning from their experience, the fact that they survived simply reinforces their feeling of invisibility.

 

[billski]

I'm with akafuzzjones (I know that face!) on this one. The "problem" if you will, in this thread is that we are preaching to the choir. And the newbies, save for a few brave ones, stay away from forums like this because of the near-religious vibes they get. Now, before you dump on me, I'm with you guys all the way, and have like feelings as you.

I have, decided it's time to do something about newbies who frankly, don't even know where first base is. Rather than lecture them on the trail, I'm taking a preemptive strike. I've begun to organize "intermediate" hikes, where I spend time teaching along the trail. It did not occur to me how much I know, until people started asking me questions. I decided it's time to give back a little.

I discovered a meetup group, "Boston Hiking" (5,000 people) which is just loaded with people who want to hike, but don't have enough confidence in their own abilities and/or would rather go with others. It's also filled with people who only go out, maybe once a year, or who haven't hiked in years. Rather than let the clueless out with the clueless, I'm going to do this for a while; maybe I can make a small dent.

I too give people a lot more slack on-trail than I used to. Back in my day, cotton and wool were the only choice. Outfitters catered to hunters and fishermen. Canvas rucksacks were De-rigeur. Coleman was high-tech. I too hiked in basketball sneakers or work boots. Don't forget, all this gear costs money, not everyone can afford or will shell out for something they will only use once or twice a year. I'm with you however on the safety thing.

Many people do dumb things because they don't know what they don't know. Getting back to this forum thing, it would be nice to have a forum that was for the "uninitiated" only. Where people can ask naive questions and not get lectured too. Truth of the matter is that, all these helpful little books and tomes on hiking are just not getting read in this day of short attention spans. I've heard some pretty silly questions, that seem pretty naive to you and I get asked.

Lastly, I think all the trail heads to Franconia/Lafayette should be fenced in, with admission charged and a qualifications check made. That region is way too convenient to get to, if you catch my drift. Just kidding on the admission and fence!

I get great satisfaction over seeing someone I've hiked with get inspired to earn more, be more sensible and excited about hiking. If they only learn one thing, and I point them in the right direction, I'm happy.

OK, I'm off my soapbox.

 

[hikerbrian]

I decided it's time to give back a little.

Good on you, billski! That's fantastic, and that's exactly the reason I started leading trips for the AMC a few years ago. I'm curious, any reason you've chosen to go sort of solo on the meetup group, rather than getting in with the AMC? Meetup didn't exist in any substantial way when I started leading tips, so I've never really considered it an option, and I'm curious on your thoughts.

I get great satisfaction over seeing someone I've hiked with get inspired to earn more, be more sensible and excited about hiking. If they only learn one thing, and I point them in the right direction, I'm happy.

Right on, brother, right on.

 

[JCarter]

I'm curious, any reason you've chosen to go sort of solo on the meetup group, rather than getting in with the AMC? Meetup didn't exist in any substantial way when I started leading tips, so I've never really considered it an option, and I'm curious on your thoughts.

Right on, brother, right on.

I can't speak for billski, but I also participate in and occasionally "lead" hikes through meetup groups. Nothing against the AMC, but they can be rather intimidating, I'm not sure I have the patience to do the training to "qualify" to lead hikes.

 

[billski]

Good on you, billski! That's fantastic, and that's exactly the reason I started leading trips for the AMC a few years ago. I'm curious, any reason you've chosen to go sort of solo on the meetup group, rather than getting in with the AMC? Meetup didn't exist in any substantial way when I started leading tips, so I've never really considered it an option, and I'm curious on your thoughts.

Right on, brother, right on.

Regarding meetup.
It's a big step for me to move away from hiking solo, deciding on where I'm hiking/skiing the night before to actually making a commitment to a time and place.

Meetup is the first place I started going - with the over 50's and then New England. I like what I find there. The downside is that there is no "quality control", with either the hikers or the leaders.

Regarding AMC, I've always found them to be a bit too bureaucratic for me. They've had 120 years to get things right and I can't argue with anything they have to say. Getting to their leadership training just ain't happening for me. I can't make lengthy commitments. Neither can most of the people who might want to go to the hiker training sessions. AMC is a big organization, they are a big target to shoot at, and as such they have a higher liability than most. So they must employ a CYA approach.

I'm more of a "live free or die" libertarian (in the non-political context.) kind of guy. I want to choose my hike when I want and where I want. I want to enjoy the damned hike too. I also can't plan months ahead. I just can't. Leading isn't a job - I'm out to enjoy myself too.

Different meetup groups attract different types of people. The New England group is what I call a "turn key" group. They self-qualify themselves, come prepared and have prior applicable experience. I never have to worry about them. The Boston group is, well, how do I say this nicely, all over the map. I've decided this is the group I want to focus on. Catch the newbies before they get into trouble is my hope. What they lack in background knowledge they make up for in enthusiasm. Age is all over the map too.

There are some meetup groups where they are full of peak-baggers (how many can I knock off in one day?), exercise nuts (how quickly can I get up and down ?) and other groups that just want to hike non-stop.

For some reason everyone, including the AMC focuses on the 4K's. And it seems that people who lead are fixated on the 4K's too. I'm carving a different niche - it's a slow, intermediate level, where we take time to stop, look and listen (sorry, no trains!)

The AMC also imposes a certain exclusivity, perceived or real, which keeps many away. BTW, I've been an AMC member for several years.

so the answer is a little bit complex.

One hike I've got coming up is an intermediate to Mt. Shaw. What most hikers won't do is stop there. They'll want to knock off two or three others at a time. This gives people a chance to experience the presidentials, appreciate the view, and be in the presidentials without a huge amount of effort. It is extremely rare to see anyone want to offer something like this. And it's sad, because a lot of people who are under confident, but want to give it a shot are excluded.

Well, there you have it.

 

[hikerbrian]

Makes sense to me, Billski. There's a substantial energy barrier to leading for the AMC, no doubt. In addition to the training, one needs to keep up their WFA certification, and posting trips does take a little bit of effort. The upside, as you suggest, is that there is some quality control.

In addition to trips, the AMC also offers a pretty good variety of workshops where specific skills are taught: map and compass, above treeline travel, winter backpacking, etc. These workshops are laughably cheap, but there is a time commitment, often a whole weekend (larger commitment for the leaders). Many folks I suspect are surprised to realize that it actually takes time and energy to acquire new skills; it takes more than downloading a podcast and tuning in during the commute to get proficient with ice axe self arrest. I don't see a way around this. Personally, I've learned some pretty valuable skills in a few of these workshops, skills that have allowed me to take trips in many parts of the world that I would not have had the skills to take otherwise. My level of enjoyment and confidence in the woods has been similarly influenced. These workshops have been my impetus for "giving back."

Regarding advanced notice, as a leader, I can post any trip I want anytime I want. If I want it to get posted in AMC Outdoors, it's true I'd need to do that well in advance, but I personally have never once done that. I can also tell you that I've posted "peak bagging" trips, and I've posted "hardcore" trips, and I've posted "chill out vacation" trips. That last one is the only type that is consistently under-subscribed. So it's not just that no one leads those trips, it's also that fewer people want to participate. YMMV with meetup.

I don't want to come off as a mouthpiece for the AMC, it has its flaws. I think there is reason and need for a variety of organizations that get people into the woods safely. But I'm surprised the AMC trips and workshops don't get brought up more often in these threads, as it's a pretty good model for volunteers doing what they can to maintain quality leadership and bring competence and enjoyment to others who share a desire to be in the woods.

 

[erugs]

Both of my NH AMC trips for September filled up immediately following the latest issue of Outdoors going out, and they were both partially filled from the online listing. It is so difficult to have to turn a person away because a trip has filled so fast. My recommendation, don't wait for the magazine to come out. It may be an easy way to view trips but the chances of missing out are high.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

...But I'm surprised the AMC trips and workshops don't get brought up more often in these threads, as it's a pretty good model for volunteers doing what they can to maintain quality leadership and bring competence and enjoyment to others who share a desire to be in the woods.

This board has a large population of AMC bashers. Besides cell phones, GPS, and dogs - the AMC is a favorite target.

Even my posting this comment may ignite the usual suspects ...

 

[billski]

hikerbrian,
You're right, AMC does have a lot going for it (or I would not be a member). I'm on my third AMC-sponsored WFA. Honestly, I've not ever considered an AMC hike. I'm not entirely sure why, other than, up until now, never hiked in a group. I think I'd rather lead and select my own destiny, which makes me gravitate more towards leading a hike. The multi-day leadership course in a land far-away not attractive - I really can't afford two contiguous days away. Well, wait, there's a class on Oct. 5th that's one day, for "class 3 and 4" leaders (whatever that means). That's a great start in the right direction - it feels like a fraternity, with codes, wondering what other overhead is involved.

Let's talk about participants for a moment.

Here's the rub. I think the AMC has a "marketing problem."

1) The impression is given that you must be an AMC member to attend a hike. I'm still not sure if this is true.
2) Most people perceive AMC as for the "serious" or "hard core" hiker. There are a few hundred enlightened souls who know better.
3) The activity listing web page leaves a lot to be desired for hikers. I'd like to filter out multi-day events and I'd like to filter on hikes by skill level, but I can't. So I have to sort through five pages and drill down on each event?

Why else would there be 5,000 members in a Boston hiking meetup group? Granted most are not active, but it's a good barometer as to where people seem to be going.

But a deeper problem is that it seems as if clubs in general are getting left behind by social media. I've been on the board of a ski club for several years. We are noticing that the younger demographic is moving away from joining clubs, and more apt to engage in something like meetup, where the commitments are minimal. I had one resort group manager tell me that last season he got a call from a guy looking for accommodations for 30 random people, who organized themselves online via social media within a week. They were arriving in one week. I think clubs are going to need to look deeper at what is going on here.

Lots of issues. Some we can control, some we can't.



Bill

 

[billski]

Both of my NH AMC trips for September filled up immediately following the latest issue of Outdoors going out, and they were both partially filled from the online listing. It is so difficult to have to turn a person away because a trip has filled so fast. My recommendation, don't wait for the magazine to come out. It may be an easy way to view trips but the chances of missing out are high.

That's definitely my mantra - I won't plan thank far in advance. But my biggest hang-up personally is the 2-day leadership training. Why can't it be done in two separate days? At least with WFA in Mass. I can go home each night and take care of things domestically.

 

[billski]

This board has a large population of AMC bashers. Besides cell phones, GPS, and dogs - the AMC is a favorite target.

Even my posting this comment may ignite the usual suspects ...

You won't see me bashing; We all have our own warts, but there is some room for improvement. I've mellowed with age - I don't care what you do in the woods or how you do it, as long as you come down safe and have a smile on your face. Everyone does it differently.

I'd also argue that only the more passionate hikers engage in forums like this. The remainder are reading these words and snickering...

 

[billski]

I think there are more unprepared hikers out there then there are prepared ones to give them advice. It's not always the novices though that are unprepared - there are many experienced ones

+1
Like the WFR First Responder I met who had no first aid gear while we were helping a woman with a sprained foot?

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Getting back to this forum thing, it would be nice to have a forum that was for the "uninitiated" only. Where people can ask naive questions and not get lectured too. Truth of the matter is that, all these helpful little books and tomes on hiking are just not getting read in this day of short attention spans. I've heard some pretty silly questions, that seem pretty naive to you and I get asked.

The ADK High Peaks have this kind of forum. What happens, in reality, is that the same people answer the questions as in the other forums. Instead, we should all request that newbie questions are treated more gently. The moderators do this from time to time with limited success. Answers with "use the search function" are, IMO, intimidating. Many times and many other places (FB, other forums, in person) I've heard this same opinion of VFTT... it's too hardcore and people are too opinionated.

This board has a large population of AMC bashers. Besides cell phones, GPS, and dogs - the AMC is a favorite target.

See above

But a deeper problem is that it seems as if clubs in general are getting left behind by social media. I've been on the board of a ski club for several years. We are noticing that the younger demographic is moving away from joining clubs, and more apt to engage in something like meetup, where the commitments are minimal. I had one resort group manager tell me that last season he got a call from a guy looking for accommodations for 30 random people, who organized themselves online via social media within a week. They were arriving in one week. I think clubs are going to need to look deeper at what is going on here.

FB is one-stop shopping, and is more conducive to the snippet / snapshot / Instagram mentality that pervades the internet in 2013.

I'd also argue that only the more passionate hikers engage in forums like this. The remainder are reading these words and snickering...

See all of the above comments FB has a very active pair of NH 4K hiking groups that are full of beginner questions and photo trip reports.

Tim