Pemi-loop starting Saturday evening 3/1

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

It's cool

I don't think you have to be defensive at what Tim is asking, he's just asking the questions we all wonder about. Personally, I think you guys rock! The rest of us, even though we may have climbed a few mountains ourselves, live vicariously through people like you. When I first met Mats I was in awe. He's done the kind of things I can only dream of. I'm startin' to feel that way about you, Leaf! In my opinion, you're doin' the stuff a lot of us wish we could...

KDT

 

[Mike P.]

Actually this is a good time to rethink your plan, after all it has a happy ending & as long as you can take some criticism along with the humor you had on your post before the trip, you should be fine.

Curious, had you had one more car, where would you have spotted it?

When was the last time people in your group were out? Curious

Plan I thought was was too much BUT you guys had cars spotted & it seemed pretty clear this was not a Do the loop or die trip, it sounded like you had a good idea you wouldn't complete the loop but were going to have fun no matter how far you were going.

Do people think the conditions sound too bad for trip up Flume? Surprised you lost the trail where you did but it does meander a bit up there. Had people been there before or was it everyone's first time on Osseo with snow on it?

Not sure how the twosome got to where you found them. (did they have a tense time getting there - you guys did not sound worried when you lost the trail & they didn't when you found them) but they sounded like they were in fine spirits & brought bivy gear.

Live & learn

 

[Tim Seaver]

Sounds like a great mini-epic kind of night! Heading into the teeth of less than favorable conditions (well equipped, of course) is vital training, IMO, for bigger mountains like Denali where regardless of the forecast, you may get caught in some serious conditions very quickly.

Those who have willingly experienced high winds, extreme cold, and whiteouts under semi-controlled conditions are much better equipped psychologically to handle severe weather and cold related "emergencies" when they do arise. Good stuff!

 

[Mats Roing]

Curious, had you had one more car, where would you have spotted it?

First choice would be Skokumchuck TH. Second would be The Basin.

When was the last time people in your group were out? Curious

Went to Cactus Club Thursday night......not sure about the others.

Do people think the conditions sound too bad for trip up Flume?

I suppose this is a question to the vftt audience. Since I was there myself maybe I'm entitled to answer as well......heading up Flume wasn't bad at all. We never made it to the ridge but my guess is that the wind would have been more of a factor there and above timberline would probably have been a real bad idea to go.

Had people been there before or was it everyone's first time on Osseo with snow on it?

It was a lot of snow up there to begin with and the trail looks a lot different when you are 6 feet above the actual ground. The two hikers who bivied had gone up Osseo Trail before us and they got lost up there and made tracks all over the place. We tried several "promising" openings on our own as well which ended up as dead ends.

If you are asking about previous experience of the crew.

I hiked mostly with Will of the people in the group before. I've done Franconia Ridge from LW to Skokumchuck in winter with him before and several other hikes winter and summer. Also done technical climbing with him (Sam's Swan Song on Cannon Cliff was the latest).

Jason is probably wearing out a couple of snowshoes every winter.....few people have more experience than him....he spends at least 40 weekends out of the year in the mountains.....mostly in the Dacks since he lives in New York. He doesn't have a username on vftt yet.....but will have soon and he will be a valuable addition to vftt.

Leaf is wicked strong with lots of stuff on her resume and knows her stuff as well as anyone I know.

Mountaingirl just came back from a roadtrip where she summited Vinson Massif in Antarctica, then sled to the South Pole and then summited Aconcagua. She has done 6 of the "7 summits" and is heading for the North Pole in April. Everest next year is on her agenda. Also done LW to Skokumchuck with her in winter before.

I haven't been up and down Osseo Trail much......probably 15 times of which maybe 5-6 in the winter.

Hope I answered your questions.

Happy Hiking

 

[una_dogger]

Heading into the teeth of less than favorable conditions (well equipped, of course) is vital training, IMO, for bigger mountains like Denali

And since Leaf is heading there this summer to do more alpine training, this Pemi experience will undoubtedly serve her well. Yep, she's going for a course in high alpine mountaineering, to learn the skills she'll need to climb the mountain someday. I had a very strong feeling this Pemi idea was a training exercise, Leaf. I'm glad you all had realistic expectations, pushed yourselves a bit without bravado, and had a good time. You were all in very good company for such a challenge, well done.



And we thought of you all saturday night every time the wind gusts roared and sent spindrift wisping into the hot tub at Sunday River..tee hee...

 

[NewHampshire]

As we slogged along to Osceola we kept cathing glimpses of the Pemi. We wondered how you folks were getting along, and jusging by the wind we were getting buffeted by we figured you had probably called it early. You are an inspiration not only for your efforts, but because your wisdom and responsible trail side decison making skills are indeed well developed. Kudos!

Brian

 

[Dave Bear]

Mats, and all, glad you folks had a nice time Saturday evening! I had gone in late Saturday afternoon breaking trail on Osceola for a Sunday hike we just did. The winds were starting to pick up but temps were nice. Wondered if you were still going out and I heard you were leaving about 7pm from LW. I turned around at 3500 ft and got to LW at 7:25 so I wouldn't have seen you off anyway. For those that would be sitting at home due to the weather, I had pleasant company,three folks from Quebec that showed up at 6:00pm and helped me break trail another 500 ft that evening. This was probably a determining factor in being able to get to both Osceolas today in very deep snow. Not to hijack your thread just that I believe some of the toughest days(and nights) I've had in the woods becomes part of the fabric of my ability and also the best guide to sound reasoning in varied conditions. Hats off to you folks for having a nice evening hike and making good decisions!

 

[Tim Seaver]

When was the last time people in your group were out? Curious

Went to Cactus Club Thursday night......not sure about the others.

(rimshot)

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Sounds like a great mini-epic kind of night! Heading into the teeth of less than favorable conditions (well equipped, of course) is vital training, IMO, for bigger mountains like Denali where regardless of the forecast, you may get caught in some serious conditions very quickly.

Those who have willingly experienced high winds, extreme cold, and whiteouts under semi-controlled conditions are much better equipped psychologically to handle severe weather and cold related "emergencies" when they do arise. Good stuff!

Hmm ... that's an interesting point of view. Will have to ponder that one.

Am also wondering - if something had gone wrong, on this well-publicized 'training trip' - what would SAR's responsibility have been? Is it a reasonable expectation on our, the general public's part, to expect the same derring-do from them in this kind of situation as we would for the average hapless hiker? Personally, I'm not interested in legal issues of liability at this point.

And leaf - with all due respect - this is good stuff. People will (and should) be discussing trips like this.

 

[Mats Roing]

And leaf - with all due respect - this is good stuff. People will (and should) be discussing trips like this.

We had a great trip where we took uttermost caution to minimize risk and Leaf wanted to make sure this thread wouldn't derail into something derogatory. VFTT members can always start a separate thread to discuss negligence and responsibility if there is desire to do so and feel free to use this trip as an example. However discussing theory can only get you so far - gotta have batting practice as well

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I guess I didn't explicitly say it, but there is no doubt in my mind that you were all well-equipped to be out there. And undoubtedly under the old standard, you would not have been negligent. However, as was discussed elsewhere (might have been in one of the cited articles) the new standard could include going out in questionable weather, and you have to admit that most of us would not have left.

My curiosity is always of the learn-from-your-experience type. It's far, far more interesting than the what-if questions and discussions.

Thanks for answering the questions!

Tim

 

[MadRiver]

I’m curious of those who feel that Leaf and her group were unwise to head out into the conditions Saturday night, does that hold for everyone who was out this weekend. Sunday morning had the same conditions early on and I know of several groups who were doing hikes that morning. Were we all unwise or just Leaf’s group because they were heading to a ridge?

 

[Chip]

Were we all unwise or just Leaf’s group because they were heading to a ridge?

You're only "unwise" if you post here and don't expect to be critiqued !

As for "negligence"; It's my understanding that the new wording only makes it easier to be fined if you need to be rescued. You can't be found negligent if you decide to turn around, walk out and grab a cup of coffee on the ride home.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

If no rescue is initiated, of course you can't be found legally negligent in the context of rescue cost recovery.

However, this weekend began to push the envelope on what A. Reasonable Person might consider safe hiking weather. Playing Devil's advocate for just a second... the very description of the driving conditions would make most of A. Reasonable Person and family think "well, I wouldn't be out driving in this, never mind hiking in it."

I, personally, don't think anyone was unwise to head out. It was unwise to head out unprepared to spend the night. I.e., since I am unprepared to spend the night, it would have been unwise for me, personally, to depart (and I would not have.) But I don't claim or believe for a minute I'm in the same class as Mats & Leaf and Jason & company. I would not have felt it unwise to go out Sunday, although I would not personally have been comfortable heading above treeline with 80+ MPH winds forecast (MWO anyway).

For the specific case of Leaf, Mats, Jason & company I think F&G would look at their collective gear and experience and not push to recover costs for an injury-related rescue. I do wonder though if you had gotten lost trying to find the way to Flume what might have happened. Probably nothing as you were all well-prepared to spend a night (or two).

Let me repeat my thanks for their sharing of the experience and for responding to our inquiries. This is a most-excellent thread!

Tim

 

[Kevin Rooney]

... Sunday morning had the same conditions early on and I know of several groups who were doing hikes that morning. Were we all unwise or just Leaf’s group because they were heading to a ridge?

Lots of folks, myself included, love to hike in stormy weather. It's primordial, and get the juices flowing. One of the differences, however, in Mats group was they started at 9:17PM, not 9:17AM, so that's a major difference.

I scanned the thread just before posting this, and noted that Mats posted the italicized text below (emphasis mine) yesterday morning, about 12 hours before the trip began. I applaud him for doing this, especially in view of the various levels of experience readers of this BB have.

Just wanted to make sure anyone who reads this thread and thinks it's a good idea to do this. I would not recommend anyone to start out a hike in these conditions unless you know exactly what you are getting youself into.

We might joke around a bit but that's not a reflection of the severity of the undertaking. You will likely see that we will bail at some point. It's not a matter of completing the Pemi-loop, the main focus is and should always be that everyone makes it home safe. That includes driving to and from the trailhead.

With that said.......the party is about to start....

 

[Mats Roing]

I had a very strong feeling this Pemi idea was a training exercise.......

I hope you had a drink in the hot tub for us as well

With respect to training......every hike or climb is a training exercise for the next one. Tecumseh is good training for Lafayette, Lafayette is good training for Washington, Washington is good training for Shasta, Shasta is good training for Denali, which is good training for an 8,000-meter peak and an 8,000-meter peak is good training for a winter ascent of an 8,000-meter peak etc. I heard there is a 65,000 vertical feet wall on one of Saturn's moons. That one needs a lot of training especially if wanting to do it without oxygen and the logistics to get to basecamp

Posting on vftt is good training as well. How many have experienced the situation when one hiker in the group falls behind for various reasons. Someone offers to carry the tent or some other heavy gear or even the backpack itself for that person (who might be getting sick or is not capable of 100% capacity for one reason or the other) to make it easier for that person to get off the mountain into safety. To have someone else carry your gear is humiliating and it hurts the ego and the standard answer from the person usually is "it doesn't weigh much, it won't make a difference".

When posting on vftt you subject yourself to criticism and sometimes you want to "bitch slap" someone for telling you what you should and should not do. This is excellent training for practicing not letting your hurt ego get in the way of your ability to get off the mountain or make it back to safety. As much as you want to reply and tell the other person to visit a hot place, look at the "know-it-all" person as part of your training program. After all, they usually have some good pointers and some of them have a wealth of knowledge and experience and it's not that bad if you can just ignore your hurt ego. If you can manage your ego, your survival chances are drastically improved.

We are all here to train each other

 

[carole]

If you can manage your ego, your survival chances are drastically improved.

Very nice statement!

I also enjoy reading reports of the 'we didn't summit' as much as (if not more than) 'we made it'.

 

[MTNRUNR]

Wow...

Thanks so much for sharing your experience!!!

Truely amazing

 

[leaf]

Good stuff? YES, I agree. Thanks Mats for posting my intentions a little more clearly than I did. And to make a long story short, I agree with everything else you posted.

Tim Seaver, that's probably 90% of the reason I choose to go out in unfavorable weather conditions. With Denali and others in my plans (Thanks una_dogger for your post ) I think mental prep is just as important as physical prep. It enables me to know what I can and can't do. For instance, 60+mph wind gusts knock me over (literally ) and yes, I can slog through 4 miles of waist-deep snow after a nor'easter, a day which Jason and I won't forget! I can also do a Pemi Loop in super high winds and hike for 20 hours straight. And now I can say that I can hike all night and not fall asleep while doing it! If I were to hike only in bluebird days and was suddenly thrown on Denali - I don't think I'd do very well!

bikehikeskifish and Kevin, yes, as much as I tend to suddenly get on the defensive which I know I shouldn't, I do appreciate the "devils advocate". Like Mats said, we chose to post our hike on the boards and we were willing to accept some possible flack from others because there's a wide array of opinions and such and that's some of the reason these boards exist, of course.

Thanks guys for your posts!

 

[MichaelJ]

I hope you had a drink in the hot tub for us as well

We thought of you folks with every gust that blew spindrift into the tub.