Poll: Blaze Removal in Wilderness

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Should the WMNF pay trail crews to remove paint blazes on trails in Wilderness areas?


  • Total voters
    205
arghman said:
sigh, I just don't understand why it's an either/or question. (e.g. "Do you want wilderness, or do you want logging?" or "Do you want wilderness, or do you want gravel/coal/etc. mining?") Framing it in that regard, either explicitly (which fortunately few groups seem to do) or by implication, is just unfair.

(Pete H: not sure whether you're making an opinionated statement or just pointing out a source of friction)
No, it's a basic philosophical question.

Do I want the forests to be there for my use?

Do I want some wilderness to be there for its own sake.

It's all how, philosophically one views the world and nature. I am just trying to boil it down into a single question.

If I want wilderness, it is there on its terms, and things are not done to aid with my enjoyment of it. In reality, there is a balancing act, but the two views are what is pulling on each side.
 
Tim Seaver said:
So once again, if you want a authentic wilderness experience, without the assurance of a man-made footbed to keep you safe, get off the trail

Absolutely true. And many of us do exactly that. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't also take reasonable measures to make the trail itself more wild.

Wilderness designation is about creating a large, contiguous area where "natural forces prevail". This means that there may be pre-existing trails (and even RR beds!), but on an ongoing basis, we attempt to minimize the human imprint on all aspects of the area (while not loosing sight of history and ongoing human use.)

Wilderness designation does not ignore recreational use and interests, but it does make it secondary to preserving Wilderness vaules. I guess that is the personal choice we each have to make: Which comes first? But remember, we're only talking about 18% of the WMNF (and a comparable percentage of the trails). Whether we want more Wilderness or not, we should at least respect it as one of the many "multiple uses" that the WMNF provides.
 
I don't think it is possible to boil this type of question down, Pete. There are so many possibilities and none of them are the final answer. And that's okay, the way it should be. Just setting foot in a wilderness area -- any area, really -- sets forth a ripple effect. It is not possible to go through life without change. Protect and Preserve and important concepts, but are they realistic and possible in the strictest sense? My own personal fear here is that there will be even more areas that I won't be allowed to explore and experience, that there will be increased limits that prohibit my options to see what is on the other side of the mountain, just as I can't walk down every shoreline.
 
eruggles said:
My own personal fear here is that there will be even more areas that I won't be allowed to explore and experience, that there will be increased limits that prohibit my options to see what is on the other side of the mountain, just as I can't walk down every shoreline.
I agree - and that's precisely why I favor Wilderness designation. It specifically encourages exploration and and personal experiences. It protects these lands forevever for primitive recreation.

If you look at all the long-term protection options for our lands (public and private), Wilderness areas offer the greatest freedom to do as we wish (as long as we do no harm, obviously.) Aside from site-specific restrictions, you can walk, camp, hunt, fish, even build a campfire, anywhere you wish in Wilderness, with the assurance of minimum human presense and distrubance. That is not true in state parks, national parks, national recreation areas, or private conservation lands, all of which are more restrictive of recreation, yet allow for more development.
 
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eruggles said:
My own personal fear here is that there will be even more areas that I won't be allowed to explore and experience, that there will be increased limits that prohibit my options to see what is on the other side of the mountain...
This is a perfectly valid opinion, but consider looking at it from a mobility-impaired person's perspective. I'm sure many handicapped people want to see what is on the other side of the mountains, too - perhaps even more strongly than we do. It is surprising how often we forget to appreciate such a simple thing as being able to walk where we please. The mobility impaired are faced with the realities of the spectrum of accessability on a daily basis.

Should we be debating why the Bondcliff trail doesn't have a paved ramp? I feel bad that we can't provide everything to everyone, but what is the difference between a handicapped person not being able to freely enter a wilderness area, and someone that is uncomfortable following an unblazed path? There are other areas of the WMNF that are available for both types of people - and maybe you don't think there is enough - but that is the reality of how it has been legislated. I'm sure you would get some irritated looks if you told a handicapped person that 82% of the WMNF wasn't enough...
 
Yes, Albee, and I wish I could hear all the sounds I used to hear and be as flexible as I used to be. Limitations can be frightening and may require rethinking and acceptance as well as perseverance.
 
eruggles said:
My own personal fear here is that there will be even more areas that I won't be allowed to explore and experience, that there will be increased limits that prohibit my options to see what is on the other side of the mountain, just as I can't walk down every shoreline.
You see? You're thinking about in terms of what's in it for YOU.

Think about a wilderness area which is off-limits to man. What happens there, happens there. We can't go in to see. Having, say, a 10 mile square someplace on the planet. What would it mean? Would it be worth it? Or do we HAVE to go there to see what it is.
 
Pete_Hickey said:
You see? You're thinking about in terms of what's in it for YOU.

Think about a wilderness area which is off-limits to man. What happens there, happens there. We can't go in to see. Having, say, a 10 mile square someplace on the planet. What would it mean? Would it be worth it? Or do we HAVE to go there to see what it is.
How about putting up a bunch of satellite-linked webcams?
 
Am I thinking of what's in it for me? Of course I am. I think of what's in it for me in everything I do. But am I selfish? I don't think so. As I stated, I am afraid of having opportunities taken away, as in trail closures in this instance. My concerns are not just for myself but for others, too. I believe there needs to be a balance. Certainly Mother Nature needs care and protection. Please don't mistake words of desire to experience the wonder of the out-of-doors as uncaring callousness.
 
eruggles said:
I am afraid of having opportunities taken away, as in trail closures in this instance.
I would share your concern about trail closures due to Wilderness designation, but it just hasn't happened in the WMNF, and I don't see any evidence that it will happen in the future.
 
psmart said:
If you look at all our lands (public and private), Wilderness areas offer the greatest freedom to do as we wish (as long as we do no harm, obviously.)
That is absolutely false. Take just about any wilderness boundary in the WMNF, and once I take a step out of it I can do everything I could do in the Wilderness, plus ride bicycles, hang glide, travel in a group of 11, etc. Of course you will just say that having 11 people is harmful.

It is the persnickety rules many of which have no logical justification that make Wilderness less like "wilderness" than many non-wilderness areas, since one of the traits of true "wilderness" is that you are your own against nature without having to deal with the effects of man.

As far as PH's question goes, I am not necessarily offended by the idea of a true "wilderness" where people are forbidden, although I would hope that such a place could be located such that it doesn't disturb recreation patterns. What I hate is all the news articles about how more Wilderness is great for hikers, I would like it better if the FS said that many hikers won't like it but we're doing it for the animals and for the psyche of many people who will never go there.
 
RoySwkr said:
That is absolutely false. Take just about any wilderness boundary in the WMNF, and once I take a step out of it I can do everything I could do in the Wilderness, plus ride bicycles, hang glide, travel in a group of 11, etc.

I was comparing forms of long-term protection: With due respect to our land managers, the non-Wilderness portion of the WMNF has very little long-term protection. And the other types of land protection, both private or public, are all more restrictive than Wilderness.

If someone has a proposal for long-term protection that offers as much freedom as the current Wilderness designations, I'm sure we'd all like to hear it.
 
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Pete_Hickey said:
No, it's a basic philosophical question.

Do I want the forests to be there for my use?

Do I want some wilderness to be there for its own sake.

It's all how, philosophically one views the world and nature. I am just trying to boil it down into a single question.

If I want wilderness, it is there on its terms, and things are not done to aid with my enjoyment of it. In reality, there is a balancing act, but the two views are what is pulling on each side.
That's a good point, thanks for clarifying.

I guess my personal opinion is, I want a small portion of the forests to be there for my use; I do want some wilderness to be there for its own sake. I support > 99% of the area of Wild River Wilderness; the other <1% being the area covered by trails with their new restrictions, and the shelters that are probably going to be removed.

I do understand the impact these things & roads & timber harvesting have on the ecology -- there are some plant/animal species for which even a 6' wide trail will have some effect; either as a barrier or as a vector for invasive species or as a source of damage from erosion/trampling, and certainly an area around trails and shelters may be prone to pollution. But that impact (of trails and shelters) is incredibly small, & I don't understand why Wilderness areas have to include complete and total area coverage for everywhere within their boundaries. It's a much smaller impact than, say, the pipeline some people want to put in ANWR, which not only impacts the immediate area, but a neighboring area which is the "comfort buffer" of some animals to noise/machinery/etc, and the fact that there would be a large barrier, and the fact that there would be a huge potential risk.

If *some* of the trails and *some* of the shelters that existed prior to Wilderness were restricted/removed, then I guess I would probably support it, especially if those recreational resources restricted/removed had specific ecological reasons for doing so (e.g. trail X / shelter Y is near a nesting site for rare animal Z). But right now it's an all-or-nothing deal, and Wilderness is a complete and blanket coverage.

In a Western state, there's more room for Wilderness -- here in a small state like NH, where there is not much public land, and the land that is public already has uses of many types, there's going to be more conflict with pre-existing uses. I'm not saying that man's interest in the use of natural world should not be placed behind that of preservation, but I think we should be looking at it from a cost/benefit standpoint. The benefits of non-motorized recreation in the WMNF in most places pose a very small cost (damage from use) to a very small portion of land base. If we want to put restrictions on a large portion of the land base where it makes sense, let's do that, but I just wish we didn't go as far as the point of diminishing returns, and in my view, the present Wilderness designation does that. (especially if we're arguing about the impact of trail blazes)
 
Other Wilderness Proposals

It's worth noting that other less-used areas of the WMNF were suggested for Wilderness designation, specifically because there would be fewer conflicts, and therefore easier to manage as Wilderness.

These proposals included the Dartmouth range, and the center of Scar ridge, both of which are virtually trail-less. However, there was very little public support for areas that folks didn't visit, so the FS couldn't be persuaded to recommend these areas.
 
psmart said:
With due respect to our land managers, the non-Wilderness portion of the WMNF has very little long-term protection. And the other types of land protection, both private or public, are all more restrictive than Wilderness.
:confused:

If I recall correctly, the area within the present Wild River Wilderness hasn't been subject to any timber harvesting since the late 1800's/early 1900's, long before its incorporation into the WMNF in the 1920's or 1930's. (apologies if I have my facts wrong) I'm very happy with the USFS's stewardship. Maybe my personal background brings me a bias: I've spent most of my life prior to living in NH in areas that have been ravaged by development.

It would be interesting to see a graph/histogram showing frequency of timber harvest within the WMNF, if you divided it up into 1000-acre sample plots; you'd get 800 or so sample plots & I wonder how many of them have never been harvested, not harvested since their incorporation in WMNF, not harvested in the last 50, 20, 10, or 5 years.

w/ regards to other methods of land protection, some of the ones I know are:
* national park
* national wildlife refuge
* state park
* state forest
* town-owned conservation land
* ownership by various conservation organizations
* conservation easements held&enforced by various conservation organizations

The first 2 are more restrictive than the WMNF (w/ respect to the issue of national parks, let's not go there); you take your chances with the state & towns. Conservation easements are almost all different & could easily be more restrictive (e.g. exclude entry altogether & require no human use whatsoever of a particular property or a particular area of a property) or less restrictive than Wilderness (allowing timber harvesting + snowmobile use). Depends on the agreement reached between the landowner and the easement holder. It's quite common for town-owned property in NH to have a conservation easement with SPNHF or TNC, and I think there are some state properties with easements with SPNHF or TNC, I'll have to check.
 
arghman said:
If I recall correctly, the area within the present Wild River Wilderness hasn't been subject to any timber harvesting since the late 1800's/early 1900's, long before its incorporation into the WMNF in the 1920's or 1930's. (apologies if I have my facts wrong).
I believe a good part of the new Wilderness was harvested in the 50's to 70's, especially on the north bank of the river. But I would have to do some checking to be sure.

arghman said:
w/ regards to other methods of land protection, some of the ones I know are:
* national park * national wildlife refuge * state park * state forest * town-owned conservation land * ownership by various conservation organizations * conservation easements held&enforced by various conservation organizations.

Those are great forms of protection, and I enjoy all those areas. But each of them prohibits at least some of the many freedoms we enjoy in Wilderness, be it camping, hunting, off-trail exploration, camp fires, etc.
 
psmart said:
I would share your concern about trail closures due to Wilderness designation, but it just hasn't happened in the WMNF, and I don't see any evidence that it will happen in the future.
Trails have vanished in areas that have become Wilderness, I just can't prove to your satisfaction that's why they vanished. Are you next going to tell me that no shelters have vanished due to Wilderness?
 
psmart said:
If someone has a proposal for long-term protection that offers as much freedom as the current Wilderness designations, I'm sure we'd all like to hear it.
Let's take a look at what bad things might happen to the Chocorua Scenic Area for example:
1) The area could be clearcut for biomass including the small spruce near the summit
2) The summit could be blasted away for hardrock mining as is done in West Virginia
3) A ski area could be built with gondola to the summit
4) The cabin and shelter could be removed ending a traditional camping option
5) The blazes could be removed and the trails allowed to grow in more, making this popular hike unsuitable for families and similar groups
6) Groups of more than 10 could be banned putting this signature hike off limits to Scout and youth groups

Items 1-3 are not economically viable and public outcry would prevent them from happening anyway. Wilderness designation would not prevent 4-6 from happening, rather it would cause them to happen. Hence Wilderness "protection" would actually provide less protection to the current situation.
 
psmart said:
These proposals included the Dartmouth range, and the center of Scar ridge, both of which are virtually trail-less. However, there was very little public support for areas that folks didn't visit, so the FS couldn't be persuaded to recommend these areas.
I guess arghman & I need to get into this idea
 
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