Poll: Do you typically carry overnight gear on a winter 4K dayhike?

[Maddy]

Nice scenarios shared by"cbcbd". They certainly bring home the point that bad stuff can happen on a hike, often when we least expect it. Some of the events would be very life threatening, and others would be survivable, given the right set of circumstances.

Paradox...I like your list. Very similar to the one we received when I took the AMC Winter Mountain Safety wayback when dinosaurs still roamed the earth.

Doug... that's a good one. "Carrying your security in someone else's backpack."

 

[DougPaul]

The interesting question is: what accounts for the discrepancy? Why are VFTTers carrying more gear than non-VFTT winter hikers?
Are we just gearheads? Are we more experienced? Are we more willing to pour money into hiking equipment? Have we had one too many close calls?

This is a self-selected survey. Such surveys are very unreliable.

The sample numbers are also small--even if the sampling procedure is unbiased, this leads to large errors. The standard deviation can be estimated as the square root of the number of responses in a category. Thus 4 responses has a standard deviation of +-50% and 100 responses still has a standard deviation of 10%. If you want better reliability (of your conclusions), it is customary to use a two standard deviation criterion--thus the range for 4 responses would be +-100%.

In other words, I wouldn't base much on these poll numbers.

Doug

 

[MadRiver]

Thank you Billy for your post. It indeed cuts both ways. I too have loaned out extra clothing, given water or filtered water for someone, fixed numerous blisters (which by the way band-aids are useless) and have given my map to a thru-hiker who was hopelessly confused. However, if push comes to shove and I’m in need of assistance, from a personal standpoint I would much prefer to encounter someone with a larger pack complete with the 10 essentials than someone with a Barbie pack containing only Suzy Chapstick lip balm and hand cream.

 

[DougPaul]

Nice scenarios shared by"cbcbd". They certainly bring home the point that bad stuff can happen on a hike, often when we least expect it. Some of the events would be very life threatening, and others would be survivable, given the right set of circumstances.*

Or here is a real scenario:
Solo BC skiing accident 4-5 miles from the trailhead. Left femur broken in two places, left wrist broken. Temp ~20F, light winds. Time: ~3pm on Sunday. I had a foam pad, Adventure Medical emergency bivy sack, down jacket and some extra insulation. Had a cell phone and GPS. I was lying in the snow and having difficulty getting my pack off, let alone deploying my gear and it appeared that I wasn't going to be able to travel any useful distance under my own power.

It isn't hard to imagine difficult situations that may or may not be survivable. And survival may depend on other random events or quirks. In the above case, someone appeared 5 min after the crash and helped me to deploy my emergency gear. Once I was stabilized, we pulled out my cell phone and it worked(!)--otherwise he could have skied out for help. But had he not appeared and had my cell phone not worked, it could have been fatal.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Thank you Billy for your post. It indeed cuts both ways. I too have loaned out extra clothing, given water or filtered water for someone, fixed numerous blisters (which by the way band-aids are useless) and have given my map to a thru-hiker who was hopelessly confused. However, if push comes to shove and I’m in need of assistance, from a personal standpoint I would much prefer to encounter someone with a larger pack complete with the 10 essentials than someone with a Barbie pack containing only Suzy Chapstick lip balm and hand cream.

Agreed--it can cut either way. However, I also suspect that on the average, the heavily prepared give more aid to the lightly prepared.

Doug

 

[Tim Seaver]

Historical note for non-climbers: When climbers were switching from pitons to nuts/chocks, a number carried pitons in their packs because they weren't yet confident that nuts could do the job. This was known as carrying one's security in one's pack...

Doug

That was Reinhold Messner, I believe, referring to people carrying bolt kits on climbs. But perhaps he was expanding on the nuts/pitons thingie, and was the one to make the phrase well known?

"Today's climber...carries his courage in his rucksack...Faith in equipment has replaced faith in oneself."

Which begs the question: Is soloing 8000 meter peaks without oxygen ( much less overnight gear) irresponsible and/or an aggressive itinerary?

 

[Paradox]

Paradox...I like your list. Very similar to the one we received when I took the AMC Winter Mountain Safety wayback when dinosaurs still roamed the earth.
:

Thank you. Opinions vary on Google. Some opt for a pair of goggles.

 

[DougPaul]

Historical note for non-climbers: When climbers were switching from pitons to nuts/chocks, a number carried pitons in their packs because they weren't yet confident that nuts could do the job. This was known as carrying one's security in one's pack...

That was Reinhold Messner, I believe, referring to people carrying bolt kits on climbs. But perhaps he was expanding on the nuts/pitons thingie, and was the one to make the phrase well known?

My recollection was pitons vs nuts, but the phrase can be (and likely was) applied to both transitions.

Doug

 

[Stash]

Yet another poll?

Reading the responses on this poll I see some trends and thought of spawning another poll from this on hiker type to further demograph (is that a word?) the VFTT group. But whenever I do that I miss too many options and get yelled at...

What kind of poster are you?

• Wimpy Wimpy Wimpy: Packs for every possibility. Always filters water. Wears a full face helmet when hiking. Leaves detailed notes of itinerary with 12 people. Never hikes solo.
• Somewhereinbetween This where I always miss stuff
• Hefty Hefty Hefty Pack? I got pockets! Shoes? Wimps!

 

[Maddy]

Or here is a real scenario:
Solo BC skiing accident 4-5 miles from the trailhead. Left femur broken in two places, left wrist broken. Temp ~20F, light winds. Time: ~3pm on Sunday. I had a foam pad, Adventure Medical emergency bivy sack, down jacket and some extra insulation. Had a cell phone and GPS. I was lying in the snow and having difficulty getting my pack off, let alone deploying my gear and it appeared that I wasn't going to be able to travel any useful distance under my own power.

It isn't hard to imagine difficult situations that may or may not be survivable. And survival may depend on other random events or quirks. In the above case, someone appeared 5 min after the crash and helped me to deploy my emergency gear. Once I was stabilized, we pulled out my cell phone and it worked(!)--otherwise he could have skied out for help. But had he not appeared and had my cell phone not worked, it could have been fatal.

Doug

Thank you for posting this. I had forgotten the details of your accident. You were very fortunate and this is a wonderful reminder of how things can change in the blink of an eye.

 

[Stan]

I have some scenarios to throw out:
#1
You are alone taking a dump in the backcountry. You squeeze so hard that you pass out. As you pass out you hit the side of your head on a sharp piece of NH granite. You are out for an unknown number minutes and start to come to. You have a killer headache, don't remember what happened, you feel nausea and vomit. You start to feel more disoriented as time goes by and do some more vomiting. You are getting very sleepy and out of it and it's almost nighttime. Do you stay put or go?

#2
You are alone, trip and fall on a tree branch, with it cleverly fitting between your ribs and puncturing one of your lungs. Breathing gets progressively harder the more you walk and you start feeling more and more pressure in your chest with each breath. It's really tough to breathe, you start hyperventilating and getting very dizzy. It's getting dark quick. Do you stay put or go?

Bonus scenario:
You are alone carrying your 40lb pack in the hills. You feel a sudden heavy pain in your chest that radiates to your left arm. "Crap", you think, "I'm going to die just like my dad". This pain is constant and has not gone away after a full agonizing 30 minutes. It's getting dark quick. Do you stay put or go?

Assume for both of these that the wind is howling, freezing temps, crazy weather, dogs and cats living together, mass histeria, etc. You have a tent, -20 sleeping bag, a whole lasagna, 5 liters of warm gatorade and are 8 miles from the nearest road and civilization.

One thing these scenarios all have in common is that a tent, sleeping bag, and 5 litres (!) of gatorade won't compensate for better preparation.

Proper diet and hydration in advance of such an expedition could have prevented that constipation in scenario #1. Lasagna probably isn't going to do it much good, either, and there are better (more immediate) sources of energy to carry.

Wilderness first aid training might suggest rest and aspirin as an antidote for scenario # 3 and may possibly help deal with scenario #2.

A failure to check the weather in advance of this prospective tragedy might result in a determination of negligence.

A trip plan filed back home could facilitate a rescue or, at worse, a recovery.

My overall inclination in all the scenarios is to hunker down, rest and do all possible to prevent hypothermia. That may mean, however, keep moving, and until we're actually faced with such a scene and all its variables it is difficult to say what we'd do.

 

[Billy V]

Changing Minds

Ummm ... maybe a poll should be taken as to whether anyone's mind has been changed as a result of this thread?


.

Kevin,
After reading the threads here so far and enjoying the exchanges I have to say that I will be adding something new as far as safety to my back pack because of this forum. Many of you carry a mylar bivy bag of some sort. So I did some research on the web about them and I will be adding a bivy bag to my back pack before I hike again. The space blanket may have to go to save a few ounces because it duplicates the Thermo-lite bivy bag.

Things can change and information can be exchanged in an entertaining way and people can influnce others in a positive way via threads like this one.

This thread hasn't drawn any blood... Well....at least not yet anyway

 

[Bob]

Which begs the question: Is soloing 8000 meter peaks without oxygen ( much less overnight gear) irresponsible and/or an aggressive itinerary?

No because the oxygen system can fail.

 

[sierra]

I carry extra clothes to wear and would have them all on at once. No bag, no bivi sack, no pad, no stove and I solo alot. My plan is to get out within 12 hours. In over 30 years Ive only failed once, due to a broken bone, that time took me a little longer. To me its about conditioning pure and simple. Im not a fan of the settling in plan, I keep on the move no matter what, if I wasnt able to Id be in the ****, because no one know's where I hike, when Im gone or nothing like that, I go old school, go in alone, come out alone, all on your own power period. Are those stakes high, yes, but pure. Out west Ive done multi days in CO and CA with these principles on the 14ers , to me thats what its all about.

 

[dr_wu002]

Update / Change of Heart

I'm definitely rethinking the whole Hiking Lite is better thing....

This past weekend I started out with a regular winter pack of sorts. Brought my stupid, pointless parka + extra shirt and sweater, extra gloves, pizza, a bunch of beers (including a 10% abv Imperial Stout! woo!) and 2 L of water. I had no trouble hiking up Flume. Once on the summit of Flume 1 L of water was gone and I proceeded to drink all of the beer. On the way down, with the lighter and supposedly safer pack I fell several times! I'm fairly bruised up now actually.

Hiking light definitely has some drawbacks...

-Dr. Wu

 

[uphillklimber]

We carry all kinds of things with us when day hiking. No tent or bag. But plenty of clothes and head to toe goretex. Many of those clothes will fit under the goretex.

Headlamp, check, but we hike at night without them anyways.

First aid kit, always.

Extra layer of clothing (or 2 or 3) check.

Head to toe Goretex, check. Also makes for a great windbreaker.

Food enough. Enough for what? We always go back with some snacks. In survival conditons, we can survive without food for a few days, not that we'd want to....

Water. 2 liters does each of us good for a day, then 2 more for overnighting. If I had to, I'd drink straight from the stream, cleanest place I could surmise, obviously. (Die of thirst, or MAYBE get sick from drinking tainted water). Sure it happens, but how often has it happened to you? Again, we are talking survival, aren't we. Overnite planning is filter time. How many of us have eaten snow? Ever get sick from it?

 

[DougPaul]

How many of us have eaten snow? Ever get sick from it?

Eating snow is a bad idea unless you are moving and generating sufficient excess heat to melt it. Otherwise, the energy cost to melt it is too much.

Doug

 

[uphillklimber]

Good point Doug Paul. I've eaten it when skiing, but can't say as I've done so when hiking, aware of what you are popinting out. Good point.

 

[mirabela]

In survival conditons, we can survive without food for a few days

That's true if you're warm. When hypothermia is a threat, though, the lack of fuel could easily turn the tables. Hunger won't be what kills you, but it's not unrelated either.

 

[DougPaul]

That's true if you're warm. When hypothermia is a threat, though, the lack of fuel could easily turn the tables. Hunger won't be what kills you, but it's not unrelated either.

The rule of 3 is just a general guide for the purpose of setting priorities. Specific situations can alter the times, for instance, one may not last anywhere near 3 days without water in the desert. The ordering of the causes of death is usually still correct.

FWIW, hypothermia victims are often also dehydrated. (Water is required to digest food and for muscles to generate heat efficiently.)

Doug