Proposed $5 entrance fee for Mt Washington Summit Building

[peakbagger]

I picked a totally arbitrary split, feel free to choose your own. 2/3rd 1/3rs east to west? Both the Pinkham Lot and the Ammo lot oveflow early in the AM most weekends. Pinkham has the overflow lots to the south while the official USFS Ammo does not. The Cog lot also gets a lot of folks who dont want to take a extra walk. Dayhikers from Mass tend to go to the west side for Ammo and Jewell loop or some variation as its the closest to I93 via RT3. Ont he rare times I end up near the summit cone. I see a steady stream of traffic a two way conga line from the summit to LOC. No doubt there is similar conga line on Tucks and Lions head.

 

[Alex_NH]

I think they should install a few more summit signs around the park identical to the one on the true summit so people can get that instagram picture next to the sign in grey-out conditions and prevent the idiotic line from forming. No one would ever know!

 

[Mike P.]

I think they should install a few more summit signs around the park identical to the one on the true summit so people can get that instagram picture next to the sign in grey-out conditions and prevent the idiotic line from forming. No one would ever know!

They did disprove the picture that was used to try and claim the first attempt of reaching the Denali summit. That was also done in poor visibility: https://www.markhorrell.com/blog/2014/how-photographs-revealed-frederick-cooks-denali-hoax/

 

[OldEric]

You are right, I will redo the math I picked the wrong denominator when I was doing the percentages. Note the hourly calculations are used for determining peak use. Therefore you cant equate peak hour use to yearly use
https://www.nhstateparks.org/getmed...9dea-de85dc283464/MWSP-revenue-attendance.pdf

They did not use the same format for each use, hikers are based on 5 hours of use while cog is based on 10 hours and they do not state how many hours for the autoroad.

Max Hourly Cog - 280 from pdf
Autoroad Hourly - 525 from pdf
Hikers hourly - 53 from pdf
Total Hourly - 853 (I added them up)
Cog 32%
Autoroad 62%
Hikers 6%

Total summit usage 315,000 with hikers at 80,000 (25%). They do not break out if the hiker usage is the summit museum or the summit in general.

Of course the Cog has stated that they plan to increase volume substantially going forward ultimately by adding a second complete track. I do not think they can double ridership with this change as they now have automated switches and sidings but there will be an increase. They claimed in front of the Coos County Planning board last year that they currently are limited by peak unload and loading capability at the summit and had proposed to substantially increase that capability by reclaiming long abandoned track within the state owned summit circle. They can not pursue that project unless the state signs off and the autoroad has objected as the Cog expansion would impact the autoroad guests access to the summit and in general complicate operations at the summit as the road to the summit circle used for supplies and handicapped access would be pinched down substantially.

Mike Pelchat when he was manager had observed that the existing wastewater disposal system had problems with surge use especially in early season. The biological systems in the system are temperature dependent and expand or contract their population dependent on usage. The "bugs are less active in cold conditions so early season weekends tend to overwhelm the system as the "bugs" are not adequately present to process the weekend surge in wasteflow. He was advocating opening the summit building to hikers on a limited basis prior to the autoroad or cog to slowly ramp up waste volume to get the system ready for the big surges when the cog and autoroad open. At some point the bugs are not the limiting factor, there are usually settling chambers to allow solids to drop out of the waste stream, if the surge flows exceed design velocity, solids get swept into the secondary treatment portion of the system that is designed for liquids and this can permanently reduce the capacity of the system.

The cog has announced they are going to be running to summit earlier but I am do not know how the logistics would work as the summit operations are predominantly supported by the autoroad. The cog did announce two years ago that they were considering building a "potty car" to haul up to the summit. I do not know if they did but presume it was just a way of getting around having to shoulder capital costs for upgrades at the summit.

Your hourly total should be 858 (not 853) based on the numbers you provided.

 

[CaptCaper]

I find it hard to believe 6% hikers. And question the facts or how they come to these figures. I worked the Cog coach for a summer and there were alot more hikers there then 6% it seemed. The Cog doesn't have full cars all the time all day and every day.
They should take the hikers $5 and send it to Fish and Game.

 

[ChrisB]

Here's the Fix!!

I find it hard to believe 6% hikers. And question the facts or how they come to these figures. I worked the Cog coach for a summer and there were alot more hikers there then 6% it seemed. The Cog doesn't have full cars all the time all day and every day.
They should take the hikers $5 and send it to Fish and Game.

This isn't that hard!

The summit is a State Park. Treat it like one.

Like National Parks, concessionaires are allowed to operate within it providing transportation, food, etc.

Many NH State Parks charge admission that provides access to the park and related buildings & ammenities. So should the summit state park. That admission fee should be separate from, but added to, the fee the Cog and Auto Road charge and be collected by them.

What about us freeloading hikers? Hikers who can show a Hike Safe card or Fishing/Hunting license are allowed to enter the park (and building). No card or license? Pay the entry fee like everyone else. Anyone with a State Park plate also gets in sans fee. (bring vech reg - not heavy)

This will not solve the Obs's problem, but it might adequately fund park operations and support sewage and other improvements at the top.

Here's the info from the NH State Park Website:

State Park Fees
Day-Use Parks:

Adults: $4.00; Youth ages 6-11: $2.00
High Use Parks - Adults: $5.00; Youth ages 6-11: $2.00 (Italicized below)
Children ages 5 & under, NH residents age 65 & over: FREE at all day-use parks.

Day-Use Parks: Bear Brook State Park, Clough State Park, Echo Lake Beach, Echo Lake in Franconia Notch State Park, Greenfield State Park, Kingston State Beach, Milan Hill State Park, Miller State Park, Mollidgewock State Park, Moose Brook State Park, Odiorne Point State Park, Pillsbury State Park, Rollins State Park, Rye Harbor State Park, Silver Lake State Park, Umbagog Lake State Park, Wadleigh State Park, Wentworth State Park, Winslow State Park

High Use Parks: Ellacoya State Park, Monadnock State Park, Mt. Sunapee State Park, Pawtuckaway State Park, Wellington State Park, White Lake State Park

 

[peakbagger]

Out of curiosity should the same policy apply to Cannon Mountain's summit facilities?. In that case there are not private entities making the profits, its just the state running the tram (for a fee). There are concessions, restrooms, potable water and wastewater systems. In theory the tram fees are covering the summit improvements plus revenue from telecom and TV transmitters. One Washington the TV and Telecom revenue is private party so the state does not get a cut. Of course another big difference is that the state is not subsidizing Mt Washington with revenues from leasing out another ski area

I think the comparison shows that the state is not charging the Cog and Autoroad enough for the services on Washington they offer predominately to those profit making entities to cover summit expenses. Sure hikers factor in but using the states numbers either 75% of the total yearly usage is profit making entities or on the hourly basis 94%. I do like Chris's suggestion of accepting a Hike Safe Card or license fee in lieu of a fee but unfortunately that money would be going to another departments budget.

 

[ChrisB]

Out of curiosity should the same policy apply to Cannon Mountain's summit facilities?. In that case there are not private entities making the profits, its just the state running the tram (for a fee). There are concessions, restrooms and wastewater systems. The only difference is the state is not subsidizing it with revenues from leasing out another ski area

Not sure I follow you here. What is the state subsidizing and not subsidizing?

 

[rocket21]

Not sure I follow you here. What is the state subsidizing and not subsidizing?

Cannon is subsidized by the state general capital fund and the Sunapee ski lease revenue.

 

[Andrew]

Cannon is subsidized by the state general capital fund and the Sunapee ski lease revenue.

Correct that Cannon as well as all NH State Park physical infrastructure benefit from state general capital funds; but it should be recognized that capital funds are used for infrastructure development, repair, and improvements. They can not be used for everyday operational expenses such as payroll, fuels, supplies, etc.. unless specifically tied to a capital project.

Much of those capital funds you can argue go right back to the "State", in that capital projects over a certain $ amount are mandated by law to be managed by the public works branch of the state's Administrative Services Dept. I recall the internal discussion to be that this requirement can increase a capital project by as much as 40%.

Even though I laid my eyes on dozens of budget spreadsheets over the years, I never noted if the Sunapee lease $ is ALL specifically allocated to Cannon. I really don't care enough to look, but I'm sure Rocket knows the answer.

Lots of statements about who should get $ from here there or everywhere, but it should be clarified that service charges as entry fees into NH State Parks goes into the State Park Fund, not the state general fund......well at least on paper as internal allocations to state agencies based on established law. I was involved in the management of numerous state park capital projects and the allocations were rarely independent to fully complete a project, and large amounts of State Park Funds were needed to fill shortfalls or be used as matches to grants to close gaps.

 

[ChrisB]

Cannon is subsidized by the state general capital fund and the Sunapee ski lease revenue.

The word subsidize carries a negative connotation. How about we use “support” instead.

In a state that markers itself on tourism, supporting operations like ski areas and summit facilities seems reasonable.

As far as Cannon summit vs. Washington, I think that’s an apples - oranges comparison. At Cannon the top of the tram is the summit building.

Both the Autoroad and Cog fully (ruthlessly?) exploit and monetize the value of the publicly owned mountain and its summit. They should pay well for that privilege.

 

[Andrew]

Both the Autoroad and Cog fully (ruthlessly?) exploit and monetize the value of the publicly owned mountain and its summit. They should pay well for that privilege.

Good point but complicated by the fact these 2 businesses predate the state activity. But the present needs/impact is obvious for stewardship partners due to the value of the resource to the general public. Very much like Monadnock where you had the Town of Jaffrey and the Society for the Protection of NH Forests own the summit and majority of the land. Locals donated the first piece of land and built a cabin with the hope that the state would put someone there to start to deal with the mess; then entered lease agreements for the state to manage public use that they did not have the resources to accomplish.

 

[peakbagger]

I guess its up to someone else to debate if the state deserves to make a profit from the users of the summit. If the state continues with the approach that MWSP has to break even then they need to account for all costs and that includes having a capital budget in place. Anyone that goes to town meeting in NH gets to vote in many towns on capital reserves funds for future major expenditures. They try to line the funds up so that when they need to pull the trigger on the expense that there is enough money to cover it in the capital reserve fund. The alternative is to just fund operating expenses and when a major expense hits, bond the costs and pay it back over many years. That only works so far as at some point the bond market starts to price in the risk that the town goes insolvent. With the current artificially low interest and bond rates that might work but if the rates go up then the interest gets significant. MWSP appears to go the bond approach and then apportion the bond payments to the users of the services. They did that with the powerline to the summit. The bond payments are paid as a significant surcharge on the power rate. In that case the TV, Radio and telecom (Yankee building) users pay the lions share. I am unsure how they paid off the bonds for buying the Dartmouth property but guess they had the summit concessions pay for it.

In this case the logical approach is bond the work and apportion the payments to major users. In this case there is probably minimal waste generation by the Yankee building operations, some use by the Obs and major use by the cog and autoroad with some use by hikers. So the logical approach is charge a user fee based on visitors that use the facilities. Its easy to charge a fee to the Cog and Autoroad which will pay the lions share, hikers are more difficult since they are not part of an organized group but it would not be that difficult to require a fee to be paid to enter the building unless the bearer has a Cog or Autoroad ticket. I think the real issue behind the debate is the Cog is trying to transfer as much of their share of the cost to other parties and the logical target is hikers and the Obs.

Yes the Cog and Autoroad were there in the past before the state and have various claims of rights from a dubious title and deed chain. There was no need to treat wastewater, no doubt it just ran down a convenient ravine

 

[Andrew]

......... There was no need to treat wastewater, no doubt it just ran down a convenient ravine

I have been wondering what spring might be benefitting from the discharge from the treatment plant. I'm pretty sure it was concessions profit that paid off the land purchase. I was often in the same office as the MWSP employee who handled the books in the past, she along with Mike were laser-focused to pay off that bond.

 

[JustJoe]

I picked a totally arbitrary split, feel free to choose your own. 2/3rd 1/3rs east to west? Both the Pinkham Lot and the Ammo lot oveflow early in the AM most weekends. Pinkham has the overflow lots to the south while the official USFS Ammo does not. The Cog lot also gets a lot of folks who dont want to take a extra walk. Dayhikers from Mass tend to go to the west side for Ammo and Jewell loop or some variation as its the closest to I93 via RT3. Ont he rare times I end up near the summit cone. I see a steady stream of traffic a two way conga line from the summit to LOC. No doubt there is similar conga line on Tucks and Lions head.

I love hiking Washington. Have done via pretty much every approach. I think Tucks is usually the busiest. And also sees the a larger % of tourist hikers. The sorts I've passed on that trail.

 

[peakbagger]

I have heard references that sewerage flow went down through Alpine Garden and then down Raymond Cataract which is one of the reasons there is no trail there. There are some springtime streams that pop up above the Alpine garden trail from the summit cone area above the trail. The current wastewater system looks like the treated liquid would flow into the Great Gulf so I guess Spaulding Lake would be the beneficiary. It would be logical to direct the flows downwind of the summit and out of sight of the paying guests of the Cog and Carriage road which lines up with Alpine Garden. The local septic tank service in Berlin used to run their honey wagon up to the summit on occasion to pump out some tanks. The truck they used had one of the ubiquitous This car climbed Mt Washington" bumper stickers on the rear bumper. One of my coworkers got an invite and did a run one afternoon up in the truck.

There was a Forest Service project on the books for many years to work with AMC to correct leakage of the the lake of the clouds wastewater disposal system by giving the clubs access to an expanded special permit area to expand the system. Gene Daniel mentioned once on a hike that during the long term AMC project to protect and restore Alpine plants that a new colony of the one of the rarer plants was found. The problem was it was nourished from the overflow of LOCs leaking wastewater system. Of course it could just be a allegorical story on the AMC.

 

[Salty]

I love hiking Washington. Have done via pretty much every approach. I think Tucks is usually the busiest. And also sees the a larger % of tourist hikers. The sorts I've passed on that trail.

Especially that first dude in the dark red shirt. Looks like a total wannabe loser!

 

[TCD]

Regardless of semantics; and regardless of who pays for what; and even regardless of what's "right" or "wrong"...

Doesn't anyone have the common sense to look at the population, and try to understand what behaviors will be incentivized when a new policy is implemented?

 

[peakbagger]

And what behaviors do you feel will be incentivized?.

IMO the Cog and Autoroad will build the fee into their cost structure so I am not that worried about tourons making use of a convenient boulder. That leaves the hiking public, IMO a typical dayhiker will pay the fee to go into the building assuming the park does not run a water spigot outdoors. The famous summit chili will pack them in and the after effects will kick in long after they have left the summit. There will be a minority that will elect to find a boulder. Given the area is above treeline with lots of tourists milling about acting like hikers by walking in the rocks just below the summit development its not like there are going to be secluded spots. Give a few volunteers a free ride up, give them "summit keeper" T shirts and they can police the summit just like GMC does on Mansfield Camel Hump and Abraham.

 

[skiguy]

Isn’t there a few books out there already on how to do this?