Proposed fees for Search and Rescue in NH

[Little Rickie]

Or, if you prefer, it is a targeted user fee, so that the hunting and fishing licenses, and recreational craft registrations do not bear the entire brunt of SAR, when hikers pay nothing.

It's a lake if you're selling and a pond if you're buying.

Tim

I thought more hunters/fisherpeople/sleaders got lost/hurt/rescued than hikers or is that just in New York?

 

[SAR-EMT40]

This has been suggested a number of times before...

Not a chance--the WMNF is a federal agency and F&G is a state agency.

Doug

I can't see why that matters. This is just a state tax (fee) added to the charge. There is no reason that I can see that this fee could not be collected at the same time and passed to the state. Only the parking fee is administered by the federal government. As a practical matter its Joe-Bobs gas station and other local places that sell the actual parking pass and they would be the ones collecting the fee. I am not sure why that wouldn't work.

Keith

 

[dug]

The reasoning (flawed, I think) why they are targeting the huts is those are without a doubt used by hikers, and only hikers. (Well, I supposed one could drive up the top of Mt. Washington, hanglide down to the Lakes, and then hanglide into Tucks, but I digress...)

Most other fees/taxes are going to target the non-hiking crowd as well. i.e. gear tax (what % of gear is used by non-hikers?), parking passes increases(hunters use them, and they don't even cover every area), and also the administrative tasks to use that charge to get money into state vs. federal hands could get cumbersome.

That being said, I would propose, if something HAD to happen, an increase in the parking fee. At a rate to cover the adminstrative costs...I envision something like your car registration in your town, which sends a check to the state.

I agree that targeting the huts, and their guests, doesn't make a ton of sense. Especially when you consider more often than not, they are assisting the rescue of parties that aren't staying there.

 

[griffin]

)

Most other fees/taxes are going to target the non-hiking crowd as well. i.e. gear tax (what % of gear is used by non-hikers?), parking passes increases(hunters use them, and they don't even cover every area), and also the administrative tasks to use that charge to get money into state vs. federal hands could get cumbersome.

I think the term "hiker" in this discussion is problematic. At what point does one become a "hiker"? For the purposes of the S&R funding debate, the issue isn't (imo) "are you a hiker" so much as "are you in a position or engaged in an activity where you might need S&R services."

I would argue that pretty much anyone parked at a trailhead (where the fees are collected) is on their way into the woods. Regardless of whether I'm a hunter, a hiker, or a biker who decides to get off the hog and take a walk up to Greeley Ponds, I'm a fair target for an enhanced parking fee.

And the administrative machinery for collecting those fees (AND sending a portion to the state) already exists.

 

[Becca M]

Why not take the vanity plate fees from those of us with hiker vanity plates and send the extra $ to F&G? [just kidding!!!!]

 

[Mike P.]

A NH bill that wil collect tax from a MA business & RMC that "lease" land from the USFS to help support NH F&G.

I admit, NH F&G should have a better mechanism to collect revenue for SAR activities. My concerns (not really isssues)

Should pass easily as I'll wager a large percentage of those AMC stys are by people who don't live in NH. Taxation without representation, of course this happens in hotels in many cities too (Time to finish those 11 ADK's I need but still stay out of NYC)

Now AMC has a reservation system, if RMC is 1st come 1st serve, will they check ID's to make sure you give a real name. (Have not stayed in an RMC facility) In my moe rebelious youth, I wouldn't, as I grumpy old man, not sure I would now.

Who pays the expenses/salaries of NH National Guard? Is that NH or Fed's If Fed's If I worked for them I'd look for expenses for choppers, fuel isn't cheap. Why not collect a piece of the F&G pie now that they'll have a pie. (or will they, see below)

Huts & cabins but not lean-to's or tent platforms? Might we see increase usage there?

If I paid my tax for staying at a hut, does that mean if I need SAR, there is no fee also? Would Day-hikers pay a fee? I'd guess more day-hikers require SAR as there are more of them & tend not to carry enough gear for an unexpected overnight. Just harder to figure out how to collect their $$$$

Hopefully, if this is passed, the money will go directly into the F&G budget & not into the general fund. If it goes to the General Fund, expect the money to fill bigger holes, like pension obligations. (If NH doesn't have these, we flatlanders are coming up to steal your politicans)

Expect it will be more difficult to get into places that compete with Joe Dodge & the Highland Center, like Hiker's Paradise as the? Are the AMC facilities exempt as they are more like hotels. If not a family of 4 would pay $12 per night so if you were using HC, PNVC or Shapleigh as a base to do day hikes on a three night weekend, that's $36. (might help steer some people back to motels that lost business with the HC opening - although I think ski resort condos helped too)

Would AMC do a promotion that they would pay your first night's tax if you book mid-week or if you also book a stay in one of the ME facilities or change a single membership to a family one?

Good thing no core inflation. (Food & fuel don't count, hey if those aren't core expenses, what are? If I have any $$ left after those non-core items, a stay at PNVC or Shapleigh just went up & since it's a tax, not counted in the inflation figure)

 

[MichaelJ]

The huts and "camps" (do they mean the caretaker-and-fee sites like Ethan Pond?) are located on Federal land and operate under Federal permits. I suspect this one will be tested in the courts quite promptly. I look forward to "State of NH vs. I. P. Freely".



Edit: for those who didn't get it, I was using "I. P. Freely" as the name most likely to show up on registrations if campers are forced to.

 

[DrJJFate]

Perhaps NH F&G could get out of the SAR business altogether. Simply relay the calls to local SAR organizations (volunteer or otherwise).

No more helicopters. No more $30k searches. After all, it is the "live free or die" state.

 

[dug]

I think the term "hiker" in this discussion is problematic. At what point does one become a "hiker"? For the purposes of the S&R funding debate, the issue isn't (imo) "are you a hiker" so much as "are you in a position or engaged in an activity where you might need S&R services."
I would argue that pretty much anyone parked at a trailhead (where the fees are collected) is on their way into the woods. Regardless of whether I'm a hunter, a hiker, or a biker who decides to get off the hog and take a walk up to Greeley Ponds, I'm a fair target for an enhanced parking fee.

And the administrative machinery for collecting those fees (AND sending a portion to the state) already exists.

This, to me, has always been my biggest argument. I spent almost 1000 hours in the woods in 2010, and only made it to the "mountains" a half-dozen times. I counted a dozen people who needed to be "rescued" in 2010 who were not "hikers" (lost elderly, canoeists, kids riding bikes into rivers, etc.). So, I don't like the intent of targeting people in the White Mountain Region, and tying it to hikers, because there is a much bigger resource drain in other areas in the state. But, can you imagine the uproar over going after the cost to find a lost old man? It's an easier sell if you target a teenager fully equipped for the mountains if he is from Massachusetts....

 

[griffin]

The huts and "camps" (do they mean the caretaker-and-fee sites like Ethan Pond?) are located on Federal land and operate under Federal permits. I suspect this one will be tested in the courts quite promptly. I look forward to "State of NH vs. I. P. Freely".

I'd love to see that one, too, but the huts already collect the NH lodging tax if I'm not mistaken, so I can't see how the extra fee would be a problem simply because they're on federal land.

They might run into problems because of the way it targets specific business entities, though.

 

[RoySwkr]

I went to the hearing on this bill and spoke briefly

F&G spoke in favor along with several reps from F&G committee, they need the money from somewhere to replace vehicles with 200k and 20-year-old Koflacks. Also in favor was the bus driver whose companion died on Franconia Ridge.

RMC and AMC were opposed, AMC hinted at alternate proposal that would also raise money for parks and forests which are also underfunded.

Committee chairman had obtained legal opinion that bill as written is unconstitutional, and House has guideline of no new taxes or fees this year so doubt it will pass in this form.

 

[RoySwkr]

I thought more hunters/fisherpeople/sleaders got lost/hurt/rescued than hikers or is that just in New York?

According to F&G stats, about half are hikers in NH

Some incidents are of people not considered outdoor users such as Patric M a few years back, fastest-growing category is dementia patients such as woman with Alzheimers in Waterville Valley who was last year's most expensive case at $66k

 

[SAR-EMT40]

According to F&G stats, about half are hikers in NH

Some incidents are of people not considered outdoor users such as Patric M a few years back, fastest-growing category is dementia patients such as woman with Alzheimers in Waterville Valley who was last year's most expensive case at $66k

Epidemiology of wilderness search and rescue in New Hampshire, 1999-2001

Three hundred twenty-one incidents involving 457 subjects were analyzed.... 73% of the subjects resided in New Hampshire and Massachusetts. At the time of the incident, 57.3% of the subjects were hiking.

This has been repeated before and is fairly well known. I actually use information out of this paper in one of my classes.

Keith

 

[DougPaul]

Epidemiology of wilderness search and rescue in New Hampshire, 1999-2001

This has been repeated before and is fairly well known. I actually use information out of this paper in one of my classes.

That data is 10 years old. It is possible that the demographics have changed since then--Roy's comment suggests that they have.

Doug

 

[Mike P.]

I went to the hearing on this bill and spoke briefly

F&G spoke in favor along with several reps from F&G committee, they need the money from somewhere to replace vehicles with 200k and 20-year-old Koflacks..

I need to raise funs soon then to replace my 13 year old Koflachs & by 98 Forester with 220K then!

Couldn't resist, I do agree they need funding, just not sur how & I would feel better paying it if it stays out of the general fund whether its from AMC/RMC beds, memberships or USFS Parking passes. (State Parking fee for parking at the State Parks?)

 

[SAR-EMT40]

That data is 10 years old. It is possible that the demographics have changed since then--Roy's comment suggests that they have.

Doug

I actually thought that the data supported Roys comment fairly well. 57% is around half.

Keith

 

[mtnpa]

SAR needs to be accepted as part of the cost of being in the tourist business.
Perhaps funding could come from the hefty rooms and meals taxes since that industry profits most from tourism.
The state needs to stop trying to pull this money out of thin air.

 

[Little Rickie]

SAR needs to be accepted as part of the cost of being in the tourist business.
Perhaps funding could come from the hefty rooms and meals taxes since that industry profits most from tourism.
The state needs to stop trying to pull this money out of thin air.

Good point. I just hate all this discussion about raising taxes and fees or what ever you want to call reaching our pockets for $.

 

[jniehof]

I like the model CO uses and would support it here. They offer a hiker card for 5 bucks, if your rescued and have the card, no charge, if your rescued and did not purchase the card, your charged for your rescue.

This canard comes up again and again. The CORSAR card is meant to facilitate reimbursement of SAR groups, not to cover individual liability. I have not heard of a case where the absence of the card meant a charge to the individual. CORSAR card; 10th mountain FAQ

 

[bikehikeskifish]

SAR needs to be accepted as part of the cost of being in the tourist business.
Perhaps funding could come from the hefty rooms and meals taxes since that industry profits most from tourism.
The state needs to stop trying to pull this money out of thin air.

I added this poll to see if there is real money in this idea or not. My observation is that many are day hikers who occasionally may go for a beer or a meal apres hike. I do occasionally, but my expenditures would not dent the SAR budget.

Tim