Proposed fees for Search and Rescue in NH

[RoySwkr]

I would feel better paying it if it stays out of the general fund whether its from AMC/RMC beds, memberships or USFS Parking passes. (State Parking fee for parking at the State Parks?)

The sponsor said he didn't claim the bill was fair, but life isn't fair and F&G needed the money

While there is little doubt that overall hikers spend far more in R&M tax than the cost of SAR, the general fund money is already overcommitted and attempts to extract SAR $$ have failed in the past. They tried to get Fed reimbursement for SAR in the WMNF but that didn't fly, and money from Washington won't be easy to get this year. The Colo license was investigated but doesn't really work and no other state has copied it. Many state parks already charge fees but are also running in the red, they would want to keep any extra $$. Hence a proposal different from the 9 that have been rejected in recent years.

 

[walker]

The REAL Problem

Let's face it folks, the real problem is the STATE doesn't support F&G, plain and simple.

The state already imposes a tax on hotels and restaurants throughout the state. If you eat before your out-of-door adventure, or eat and drink after your adventure , or stay overnight somewhere, you have already donated to the state coffer. Why can't some of this money go toward SAR?

IMHO, people involved in a "Rescue", and I use the word "rescue" in a very broad sense, are involved more in eating and drinking then staying in a targeted establishments.

Am I missing something....Why can't the state just allocate funds for SAR use?

The only people who have any control on what happens, are the people who live in the state. We need those people to call, write, throw a snowball with a note attached, or somehow contact their representative and voice their opinion.

Live Free and Hike.....Walker

PS....I like the idea of the license plate aimed at hiker/backpackers. BUT, unfortunately, that would only put the burden on New Hampshire residents only...Not Fair.

PPS....On second thought, don't throw a snowball at your representative. They might not see the humor in it.

 

[griffin]

PPS....On second thought, don't throw a snowball at your representative. They might not see the humor in it.

Especially now that they're allowed to pack heat in the state house.

 

[TEO]

Let's face it folks, the real problem it the STATE doesn't support F&G, plain and simple. :eek

Bingo! We have a winner.

Whether we're a local hunter, an out-of-state peakbagger, a bus driver on a day off, suffering from dementia, a boy-scout, or a yuppy Appy, we all are potential beneficiaries of SAR. The state of NH needs to increase the F&G's funding. If they don't have enough money, they should implement as broadly based a tax as is possible. I'd suggest a gas tax.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

SAR needs to be accepted as part of the cost of being in the tourist business.
Perhaps funding could come from the hefty rooms and meals taxes since that industry profits most from tourism.
The state needs to stop trying to pull this money out of thin air.

I rent out my condo in Bartlett and the state is banging tourists pretty good to the tune of 9% tax on rentals. I think that a 9% + $1 would go a long way to help fund SAR/F&G and I wouldn't pass that on to my renters. An increase to 10% I will pass on to them. The state is not fooling anyone where the money will come from.

Keith

 

[dug]

Bingo! We have a winner.

Whether we're a local hunter, an out-of-state peakbagger, a bus driver on a day off, suffering from dementia, a boy-scout, or a yuppy Appy, we all are potential beneficiaries of SAR. The state of NH needs to increase the F&G's funding. If they don't have enough money, they should implement as broadly based a tax as is possible. I'd suggest a gas tax.

No f-en way. I pay enough in gas taxes already. All set.

 

[Mike P.]

Bingo! We have a winner.

Whether we're a local hunter, an out-of-state peakbagger, a bus driver on a day off, suffering from dementia, a boy-scout, or a yuppy Appy, we all are potential beneficiaries of SAR. The state of NH needs to increase the F&G's funding. If they don't have enough money, they should implement as broadly based a tax as is possible. I'd suggest a gas tax.

Gas taxes have been earmarked for highway maintaince & development. Already crying higher mileage cars, hybrids & decreased driving when gas gets to $4+ & a recession is hurting highway upkeep. (big machinery cost keep going up, as does materials & labor to build them)

No one here questions that F&G needs more $$$ for SAR (if they do it at all) I'm willing to pay a small tax as long as it goes directly to them. If it goes to the general fund in Concord, it will likely go to paying for other social services, pension costs, a new building in Concord, etc. & F&G will still be short. I'm thinking a card may not be a bad idea, I'd pay $5 or $10 a year for a get rescued for free card. Hopefully never use it but beats the fine.

 

[walker]

No f-en way. I pay enough in gas taxes already. All set.

Depending where you live you pay the following for Taxes on Gas and Beer (cents per Gal on Gas / per 6 pack (or container) on beer)

NH Gas = 19.6 Beer = 30
MA Gas = 23.5 Beer = 11
ME Gas = 31.0 Beer = 35
VT Gas = 24.5 Beer = 26.5
NY Gas = 44.6 beer = 14
(from Tax Foundation (c) 2010)

AND...If you get your gasoline in Lincoln NH, you pay upwards of 30 cents per gal more then the same gas just south of Plymouth, NH


SO..Buy your gas in VT and your beer in NY

Or, maybe, just take 15 - 20 percent form the Parking permits we buy and give it to the F&G for SAR? But then, again, this would put the burden on the hiking community and let the others slide.

Maybe the general population of New Hampshire should pay. The offset of tourist dollars coming in would be higher than the output of SAR dollars.

Hike Free and Live....Walker

 

[David Metsky]

Moderator Note
Friendly warning - please don't bring politics or personal attacks onto the boards.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

You always have the option of buying a hunting and/or fishing license. You don't have to use it. The money goes to F&G.

Tim

 

[Creag Nan Drochaid]

SAR insurance good deal

We have been running in circles over how to pay for SAR for decades now. I now take in hand the book "Hut Hopping in the Austrian Alps" by W.E. Reifsnyder. On pg. 61, he writes, members of alpine clubs "...are covered by liability insurance, and, in case of an accident in the mountains, the insurance pays costs of search and rescue (which are not free in Europe), and costs of recuperation."
I would be willing to buy SAR insurance for up to $12/yr. How this is arranged is up to the insurance company and the State of NH. If the various European Alpine Clubs can do this through buying a group policy, surely a club the size of the AMC can do likewise.

 

[DougPaul]

We have been running in circles over how to pay for SAR for decades now. I now take in hand the book "Hut Hopping in the Austrian Alps" by W.E. Reifsnyder. On pg. 61, he writes, members of alpine clubs "...are covered by liability insurance, and, in case of an accident in the mountains, the insurance pays costs of search and rescue (which are not free in Europe), and costs of recuperation."
I would be willing to buy SAR insurance for up to $12/yr. How this is arranged is up to the insurance company and the State of NH. If the various European Alpine Clubs can do this through buying a group policy, surely a club the size of the AMC can do likewise.

The situation in Europe is very different from the situation in the USA. Rescue in Europe is a commercial activity (it is generally done by professional guides who expect to be paid for their services). In the USA, rescue tends to be done by volunteers (no pay) under the oversight of government officials (on salary).

Doug

 

[Creag Nan Drochaid]

SAR card?

Responding to Doug Paul: The percentages of fees that go to volunteers vs paid staff do not change the fact that the SAR fund for NH F&G is tapped out, and it seems only fair that people needing SAR ought to have to kick in something for their rescue. Maybe someone can tell us if part of the fee for a hunting license or a fishing license goes to the SAR fund. Maybe it is time to sell a "SAR card" through the same vendors as sell you your fishing license, and places that sell your parking pass, all proceeds for the SAR fund. What's one more license to sell for them?

 

[DougPaul]

Responding to Doug Paul: The percentages of fees that go to volunteers vs paid staff do not change the fact that the SAR fund for NH F&G is tapped out, and it seems only fair that people needing SAR ought to have to kick in something for their rescue. Maybe someone can tell us if part of the fee for a hunting license or a fishing license goes to the SAR fund. Maybe it is time to sell a "SAR card" through the same vendors as sell you your fishing license, and places that sell your parking pass, all proceeds for the SAR fund. What's one more license to sell for them?

IMO, NH has been irresponsible in not funding SAR and is trying to send the bill for their foolishness to others.

Walker has it right:
SAR is an expense of tourism (from both inside and outside of NH) and F&G's SAR expenses should be funded by the state (which spends money to promote tourism and collects taxes (direct and indirect) from tourism).

Doug

 

[Tim Seaver]

SAR expenses should be funded by the state (which spends money to promote tourism and collects taxes (direct and indirect) from tourism).

Indeed they do. Looks like the austerity program has yet to kick in on that front.

Nifty Numbers

Division of Travel and Tourism Development Promotional Spending 2010: $5,599,853

Estimated Traveler Spending Resulting from DTTD Promotional Activities:
10.13 % X $4.00 billion = $405.2 million in spending

 

[RoySwkr]

Maybe someone can tell us if part of the fee for a hunting license or a fishing license goes to the SAR fund.

I believe that what was said at the hearing was that the only dedicated SAR money was from the $1 surcharge on boats, ATVs, etc. If the SAR account runs dry, funds are transferred from the F&G account which does come from hunting & fishing licenses.

So CND is willing to pay $12/yr for SAR because he hikes a lot. What about the family with 3 teenagers from out of state who are going to hike only one day during their visit, will they want to pay $60? Or will they go to VT or ME for their vacation instead?

It would take less than $1/hiker/yr to replenish the SAR fund so why do people keep talking about $12? For $10 you should be able to buy a 10-year or even a lifetime SAR card. Of course once you have such a fee there will be plenty of folks looking to siphon it off for land acquisition, park overhead, etc.

 

[Mike P.]

You always have the option of buying a hunting and/or fishing license. You don't have to use it. The money goes to F&G.

Tim

I'd buy a NH & a NY Fishing license if they weren't extra expensive for out of staters. Tourist pay for a week or weekend close to what a resident pays for the year.

 

[--M.]

I'd buy a NH & a NY Fishing license if they weren't extra expensive for out of staters. Tourist pay for a week or weekend close to what a resident pays for the year.

I do this, too, both for fishing and as a way to reduce SAR liability.

Some in NH are frustrated and enraged and need scapegoats. (For another example, see the stories on denying voting privileges to students.) It's easier for them to rage xenophobically than remember where the majority of their tourism dollars come from. Even if an elegant solution were to arise from these pages, it wouldn't necessarily satisfy knee-jerk anger on the campaign trail.

I appreciate plowed lots and maintained trails and am eager for a (reasonable) way to help defray that cost. Same for SAR. But that's different from validating misplaced emotions about tourists who get in too deep. Vacationers needing rescue should be funded by tax dollars generated by those same customers. The rest is recrimination. Until the market makes this happen, we could go on forever, with no practical result outside this community.

The [edit] irrational [edit] are just going to have to get over themselves. Personally, I drop a lot of cash into New Hampshire (as a percentage of disposable income), and I'd sure appreciate it if there were less hostility coming back the other way. I notice, by the way, that the anger never seems to come from the vendors; they all seem happy to do business.

 

[Raymond]

Speaking of anger, I’m pretty mad that MacDonald Barr was described as being ‘‘left to die.’’

I don’t know Lars Jorrens, the young man who risked his life to get to Barr (and saved Barr’s son), but his mother told me at the time that Lars just couldn’t get the man to get up and move.

I suppose technically it’s accurate, but I wouldn’t call it ‘‘leaving him to die.’’

 

[RoySwkr]

Speaking of anger, I’m pretty mad that MacDonald Barr was described as being ‘‘left to die.’’

I don’t know Lars Jorrens, the young man who risked his life to get to Barr (and saved Barr’s son), but his mother told me at the time that Lars just couldn’t get the man to get up and move.

I suppose technically it’s accurate, but I wouldn’t call it ‘‘leaving him to die.’’

I said it because I'm angry with the situation but not at the individuals and Lars is perhaps the least to blame.

As I recall from reports at the time, the victim was actively combative when Lars was there and not having proper attire for the conditions Lars returned to the hut and reported. Two other crew members then went out and brought in the son.

The acting hutmaster having passed out all their own warm clothes to guests arriving hypothermic did not feel able to go out themselves, but based on crew reports told SAR that conditions were too bad to do anything that day. SAR came up the next morning for what they expected by then to be a body recovery and sadly they were correct.

I was not there that day and can't be sure, but from the reports it appears that while conditions were extreme for people who were carrying normal summer gear for a hut stay they were what might be considered "normal" or even "warm" for many winter Presidential hikers. A team with crampons and insulated suits could perhaps have dragged Barr on a
toboggan to the hut where he perhaps could have been rewarmed if carrying him to the road would have taken too long. Or maybe set up a bivy shelter with a heater? But there wasn't such a team at the hut, it would have taken awhile for one to get there, the acting hutmaster discouraged sending one late in the day, and who knows whether Barr would have survived that long.

Is AMC at fault for encouraging people to go out in severe weather because they have a prepaid reservation (presumably one reason this fee is proposed for hut guests)? Should high huts be staffed by people with winter hiking experience and a locker of winter gear kept on site? (That might keep staffers who are experts in alpine botany for instance off the rolls in preparation for an event that might never occur.) Remember that this was late season when many of the regular crew had gone back to school and the staff was a mishmash. And of course it is Fish & Game not AMC with the legal responsibility for SAR. While it is unfortunate for Mr. Barr that more was not done for him, the person most responsible for his death was himself for pushing on in conditions he was not prepared for.