Question for people who hike w/dogs

[ellen]

My husband and I have a 6 month old pup (australian shepard mix) from the shelter. We took him for his first hike up mt. hale last week (on a leash the whole time). He did great with agility and endurance. He had energy to spare at the end of the hike! The problem was with his manners. He is usually a friendly and laid back dog that is well socialized with people and other dogs. Well, he growled and barked at every person and dog we saw. Once we were close to the people or other dogs he was very friendly and happy to see them and his barking stopped.

my questions are:
has anybody else experienced this with their dogs on the trail?
any ideas on how to stop the behavior?

p.s. I hope this is the appropriate forum to post this question on.

 

[MadRiver]

I just had the opposite happen to me coming down Mt. Jefferson last Monday. A woman’s dog was so skittish upon seeing me, that the dog ran down the trail (trust me, I’m not that ugly). I finally had to walk into the woods so the dog would go by. Dare I say that a LEASH might have been the appropriate tool to use in this circumstance? Pulling up my lawn chair and getting my coffee ready, for this aught to be good.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Ellen -

It sounds to me that his first reaction to seeing new people/other dogs is fear, so I'd suggest that you work diligently on socializing him, taking him to new, strange places frequently, ideally every day. He needs to build confidence that new people/dogs do not equal threats. It's important that when he is fearful that you ignore it. That's easier said than done as one's instinct is re-assure a fearful pet, but - it has just the opposite effect. By paying attention to him at that moment it reinforces that behavior.

I'd also suggest watching the "Dog Whisper", Ceasar Milan on the Discovery Channel. Amazing fellow - no tricks, just knowledgeable dog psychology. Ceasar will point out that you only reinforce positive behaviors.

And - what is the basic nature of australian shepard's? As a working dog they may, by nature, prefer a more solitary existence. I don't know that for sure, but it would worth checking out.

 

[beverly]

Exactly

Ellen -
I'd also suggest watching the "Dog Whisper", Ceasar Milan on the Discovery Channel. Amazing fellow - no tricks, just knowledgeable dog psychology. Ceasar will point out that you only reinforce positive behaviors.

I'm in the middle of reading his book and learning much about dogs that is contrary to what I thought. Don't praise the dog after he is aggressive and then friendly. I can imagine that you are getting a little anxious watching his behavior and that only reinforces his behavior. And it probably is not a good idea for him to be out on the trail in front of you. You have to be the "calm, assertive leader". Easier said than done!

 

[dug]

In addition to what Kevin said, I just wanted to add that with some dogs, they are protective of what's "their's". Their owner, their house, yard, etc. The problem, especially when dogs first start out, is that trails are often solitary for long stretches. They think they own the trail. So, when they suddenly see or hear someone coming, they go into protection mode. Once they identify the "threat", and realize it's really nothing to be worried about, they will transition back into playful mode.

Socialization in all areas: your yard, home, on neutral turf will continue to help getting this "cured".

 

[carole]

Dare I say that a LEASH might have been the appropriate tool to use in this circumstance?

A dog on a leash is much more appreciated by others on the trail.

 

[Artex]

I've noticed some dogs simply are a bit more on guard when out in the woods. An ex-girlfriend's dogs were like this, but I noticed the more I took them out in the woods, they eventually got more comfortable and chilled out considerably.

 

[jade]

hello my dear friend madriver....

i am one of those folks who does not leash her dog, rather i have spent many hours training my carmen...when i see someone approaching, she comes and sits next to me until people pass or they ask if they can pat her....sometimes she barks and sometimes she doesn't....when she does bark, i let people know that she is friendly but that i will hold her until they pass...i don't think it is fair to have your dog run up to people regardless of how friendly they are unless the dog is invited...

it's my experience that dogs tend to be more aggressive when leashed...i'm not entirely sure of the psychology of this behavior, perhaps fear...at one time i thought my dog barked to protect her home/yard, but i realized she is protecting me and others in my company....the ups driver says carmen never barks at him when i am not at home (we live on 10+ acres and she stays out while i'm away for a while)....

leashing a dog is the presumed way to control all dogs...i have learned that my dog is an exception to this 'rule' and 'no leash' fits better into my way of modifying my dog's behavior...i don't like putting a collar around carmen's neck and attaching a tether...doesn't sit well with me.....that being said, i ALWAYS carry her collar and leash on the trail for unexpected situations (such as me becoming incapacitated)...


i agree with kevin that socializing your dog will help greatly...maybe you could have friends walk in the opposite direction on the trail and train her with people you know to start off with....your dog is quite young and training takes time....I am always consistent with carmen--no matter where we are, she must abide by some very basic rules....GOOD LUCK!!

Just so you know, posts on hiking with dogs sometimes turn controversial..maybe this one will be the exception....so far, so good...

...jade

 

[funkyfreddy]

Most dogs behave much differently in the woods and on the trail than they do at home, especially dogs raised in the city or suburbs. Getting your dog acclimated to the trail will help, depending on the breed and training.

I used to hike with a black lab who was very well behaved both on and off the leash, but tended to get more aggressive after dusk when backpacking since he wasn't used to sleeping outdoors at night.

 

[ellen]

Thank you all very much for your comments. I have read other dog posts that have become controversial and I'm glad this hasn't happened here. All of your comments are helpful. We live a country type setting with a couple of neighbors. Our puppy goes to doggy daycare two days a week to help with socializing with other dogs. We also go to obedience classes and are hopeful that someday he'll be reliable and calm off leash.

 

[Maddy]

I trained my Akita to have perfect trail manners. I hike with her on a long retractable leash so she can do her own thing. In dog school I taught her the "leave it" command. You put something down on the floor and tell the dog to "leave it". When they do, they get a treat. We practiced this at home and in the yard over and over again many times each day. When we are out hiking and another dog approaches I tell Kodi to "sit", "stay" and "leave it". She used to get a reward for this but it is no longer necessary. She just does it. She will let any dog walk right past us,including the aggressive ones and the barkers. Now if an unleashed dog approaches us, usually at a full gallop, I make Kodi do her thing but I do yell at the perpetrator to "get out"..."go back" and I also yell "no". I have not had a problem when I do this as most dogs just go back toward their owners. The owners are usually trying to get their mutts under control and get a leash on them. I started the same program today with my 1.5 yr old Bernese Mountain Dog....Bernie. Much to my astonishment he responded very well. . I showed him the cookie, made him sit, stay and leave it. He knows the basic "leave it" command but I was amazed that he did it today when he was already all reved up at the site of the other dog. He gets very excited so now that his acupunture is working and he can stand upright and propel himself forward I need him to behave himself when he hikes. I have to admit that he has been a bit spoiled because of his numerous health issues.
Good luck with your pooch. Like Jade said..."many hours training Carmen" but in the end you have a great bond with the dog, it's fun, and you can enjoy each other a whole lot more. Kodi went to school for about two years because she is an Akita, very stubborn , and could be dangerous is she had no manners. We used only the reward method and she did great with it. Bernie was taught his basic commands using rewards also. He's a lot more "flexible" than Kodi was and less intimidating.

 

[skiguy]

hello my dear friend madriver....

i am one of those folks who does not leash her dog, rather i have spent many hours training my carmen...when i see someone approaching, she comes and sits next to me until people pass or they ask if they can pat her....sometimes she barks and sometimes she doesn't....when she does bark, i let people know that she is friendly but that i will hold her until they pass...i don't think it is fair to have your dog run up to people regardless of how friendly they are unless the dog is invited...

it's my experience that dogs tend to be more aggressive when leashed...i'm not entirely sure of the psychology of this behavior, perhaps fear...at one time i thought my dog barked to protect her home/yard, but i realized she is protecting me and others in my company....the ups driver says carmen never barks at him when i am not at home (we live on 10+ acres and she stays out while i'm away for a while)....

leashing a dog is the presumed way to control all dogs...i have learned that my dog is an exception to this 'rule' and 'no leash' fits better into my way of modifying my dog's behavior...i don't like putting a collar around carmen's neck and attaching a tether...doesn't sit well with me.....that being said, i ALWAYS carry her collar and leash on the trail for unexpected situations (such as me becoming incapacitated)...


i agree with kevin that socializing your dog will help greatly...maybe you could have friends walk in the opposite direction on the trail and train her with people you know to start off with....your dog is quite young and training takes time....I am always consistent with carmen--no matter where we are, she must abide by some very basic rules....GOOD LUCK!!

Just so you know, posts on hiking with dogs sometimes turn controversial..maybe this one will be the exception....so far, so good...

...jade

Thanx jade well put. ellen as jade has mentioned already your dog is quite young and training takes time. Consistency is of the upmost importance...even it is only 15- 20 minutes a day. I have an Aussie that I hike with sometimes and it is a great companion. I have spent many hours training her. They are very smart and dedicated dogs and therefore very trainable. Because they are hearding dogs they want their owners to be part of their herd and they want to protect that herd; although you need to teach them how to do it appropriately. The reward system has worked very well with my dog. I would definitely suggest starting with short walks and work up to longer hikes.Although your dog sounds as if it was up to Mt. Hale physically, it may have been a bit taxing mentally and socially at this stage in the dogs developement.Sounds as if you are already taking some great steps to further your dog's learning...stick with it because it will be rewarding for you too!

 

[SilentCal]

In my yard, my dog is king and he knows it. The yard is fenced in and he only barks at two things: when a stranger that he does not know, comes into the yard and the mailman. Out on the trail, he is very much more reserved. He will only have the behavior that started this thread only when we are surprised and not notice someone coming by beforehand. I do believe the age of the dog has much to do with this. Puppies and younger dogs will become more excited at "new" experiences. Older dogs, mostly through owner-dog relationships, behave much better. It's truly nice to see those good owner-dog realtions. It can be very hard work but it's nice to know that there are people out there that put an a great deal of effort towards that.

I've hiked with Carmen and she is a gem on the trail.

 

[MadRiver]

Dearest Jade:

It wasn’t so much that the dog was on the trail unleashed that I found annoying, since I encountered ten or so dogs on the summit of Jefferson that day, it was the fact that the dog ran “down” the trail as I approached, thereby increasing the distance from the owner to the dog. I was under no obligation, morally or otherwise, to assist this woman in retrieving her dog. Given that the dog wasn’t leashed or under any semblance of voice control, it probably would have run all the way back to the trailhead if I hadn’t stopped walking. I ultimately had to walk into the woods a ways and wait until the dog “finally” ran past me. The woman must have known how her dog would react, since she told me she was skittish. Wouldn’t the prudent thing to do be place her on a leash or at the very least, hold her until I walked by?

Jade, I’m certain that you have a wonderful dog that is obedient and knows how to react on a trail. 90% of the dogs that I encounter at great, it is just the 10% owned by idiots that I have a problem with.

 

[David Metsky]

Shot across the bow

<mod hat>
Reminder: Dog threads are often contentious and people have strong opinions on dogs on the trails.

But please stick to answering the questions asked. DO NOT use this thread to rehash the many arguments we've had in the past. It will not go well if that happens, this is the only warning you're going to get. If you have a question as to whether something is appropriate for the thread then ask me; don't post and hope it's OK.

-dave-
</mod hat>

 

[pedxing]

Coincidentally, I was out on Hale with a newbie dog last weekend. We were doing the Hale - Twins loop with my 14 month dog last weekend for her first White Mountains' trip. We'd done some hiking in the Fells and the Blue Hills closer to home to build up to this.

What's worked with this dog so far, and with my retired hiking partner (now nearing 14 and arthritic) is pre-emption. I make contact with her and assert control, gently, before she barks or growls (learning the cues takes learning on my part). Physical contact (a tug of the leash, a pat, or gently placing a hiking pole on her chest) along with a gentle command lets her and the people approaching know that I'm in control and want to be considerate of them. "Gentle" is my command for her to stand down. I add "no angry noises" on the trail - and then gently correct if she growls or barks. I figure it communicates to her anyone else present what I'm trying to do. It's important to me, not only that she is under control, but that I demonstrate that to anyone who might be nervous about a dog on the trail. Where control, not a leash, is required I carry a leash (or my bear bag rope to use a s a leash) but only use it in special situations.

Last weekend, there were more growls and barks that I wanted, but it was a new situation, she made excellent progress and quite a few people were complementary about her behaviour on the trail. She had a nice streak of "perfect" interactions with others at the end. Next up: she will join me in the middle of a Northville-Placid through hike.

 

[Dugan]

This is a fairly complex issue. There are many reasons a dog might do this. I don't know Aussies or herding dogs all that well in general (Unadogger, where are you?), but here goes.

Make sure you are not in any way reinforcing the dog when she is behaving in a manner you deem inappropriate. For some dogs, any kind of voice or physical attention can be a positive reinforcer.

My dog will do this sometimes. As a result, whenever I see people approach, I step as far off the trail as possible. I put him on a sit-stay and keep him there. I tell him in a stern voice that he's fine. Then, if he's quiet, I praise and pet and make a big deal out of him. If he isn't quiet, I ignore him. After he is calmed, I toss in a few more obedience commands (maybe a down, then a sit, then walk again), but I wait for a while before doing "nice" things again.

Socializing and training will be a big help. An Aussie should be fairly good at doing attention work - that is, focusing on you - eye contact with you. If you reinforce general attention training, you can later use that to give her something to do, rather than going out and barking.

 

[Wet]

Hi Ellen,

My name is Wet, and I hike with my dog.....(ok ok, it's not an AA meeting )

My experience and suggestions.
First try to socolize your dog as much as possible off leash. Dog parks are great for this, as most people there will not complain when your dog is off leash, and many people will have heplful suggestions for you.

Next, give your dog something to do. My dog behaves much better on the trail when he wears his doggy backpack. It gives him something to do, and he is much more relaxed when carrying it, and did I mention he behaves better. There is a whole schpeail on dog psychology that I wont get into here, but it works.

Lastly, your dog is a herding dog (which you should know). it's in his/her nature to bark, and "herd" people into groups. This is something you will have to workwith your dog. A freind of mine has several shepperds, and when we hike with a group the dogs activly work to keep the group together by barking at the people in the back and impeeding the people in the front when the group gets spread out.

lastly the rules of thumb I follow. I always leash my dog at trailheads, until i get into the woods a bit. My dog is mostly under voice command . When I encounter people on the trail, or other dogs, I leash my dog, and then find out how comfortable they are with dogs. I usualy leash my dog before summits or near group area's until i get the mood of the area and see how comfortable people are with dogs.

hope this helps.


PS- hiking with people who have dogs, will also help train your dog. Next time you plan on going hiking, see if you can bring a feind who has a dog that is well trianed for hiking. The other dog, will coach your dog on proper behavior.

 

[Garry G.]

I hike with my dog. He's a Sheltie which is a herding dog. I don't always have him on a leash but I make him stay close and make him sit and stay when people approach. I worked with him quite bit in the woods at home before we ever went on a hiking trail. I made sure he would stay within my sight, stay on command so that I could leash him when we encounterd other hikers. He almost never barks at anyone unless he's really startled. I put quite a bit of time in with him, he was a fast learner but it took me a bit of time before I was sure he wouldn't bolt on me. I've seen many Aussies on the trail and hope you have good luck with yours.

 

[Waumbek]

I believe 6-9 mos. is a critical developmental stage for dogs when they are learning to identify their "pack" and threats (real or perceived) to it. It's the perfect time to work hard on all the good advice in this thread about making yourself into the pack leader, which is just as often accomplished by ignoring the dog's undersirable behavior as by reacting to it. (Canine pack leaders don't bristle and fight over every small aggravation from othe dogs, which expends too much energy; sometimes they just ignore the pests in their pack.) By the same token, 6-9 mos. is still young so don't expect perfection too quickly. Consistent and persistent training is all. Every dog is different so find out what works with yours. Try turning your back literally when your dog exhibits unwanted behavior at home--barking or begging, for instance. If the dog eventually ceases, that tells you something about how to become your pack's leader. (I've found this to be good advice in non-canine situations as well.)